Gardenhire Gone!?!?!!?

[JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]]

I don't get the obsession with Jeff Burton or the disregard for Deduno. I don't get why he stuck with Florimon when it was clear he would have a tough time hitting Lake Blue pitching. But I don't think he deserved to be fired. The story of the 2014 Twins is the same as it was for 2011, 12, and 13: Starting pitching. And it's just not his fault.

[Monster]

I don't get the obsession with Jeff Burton or the disregard for Deduno. I don't get why he stuck with Florimon when it was clear he would have a tough time hitting Lake Blue pitching. But I don't think he deserved to be fired. The story of the 2014 Twins is the same as it was for 2011, 12, and 13: Starting pitching. And it's just not his fault.

I think Gardy is still a good manager but I've wondered if it was just time for a change. I wasn't in favor of it just wondered but thought Gardy would stay. I just wonder if the game and players have changed enough and Gardy hasn't adjusted enough. Tough to change when you have been with the organization for so long etc. Is he the guy to manage with all these young guys coming up? Idk but that's a fair question. I've never really been down an Gardy but I guess its time for someone new. I wonder who its gonna be. I'm thinking they go outside the organization. It will be interesting to see what happens that's for sure.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

The media wants to force us into one of two camps...either it's Gardy's fault, or it's not because he wasn't given the right players. I actually think both statements are true. There's no question that Gardy wasn't given a team talented enough to make the playoffs. But I still think he underachieved. The roster was the main problem, but I also think Gardy turned an 80-85 loss team into yet another 90 plus loss team. Here are the issues I have with Gardy.

1) His inclination to always want to put the band back together. How many games were wasted this year as he tried to convince everyone that Kubel, Guerrier and Bartlett could still play?

2) His fascination with Mauer in the three hole. Mauer is a great hitter, but he there was really only a short period in his career that he was a real number three hitter, and it's the most important spot in the lineup. Mauer is not a power hitter...he's basically a contact hitter that uses the entire field. He belongs in the two hole, and as the youngsters continue to come up and establish themselves, further down in the lineup.

3) His disdain for defensive shifting. Shifting has been the most significant change in baseball the past few years, and Gardy has been way behind the curve. It was encouraging to see the club use the shift more this season, but from what I heard, this had a lot more to do with Molitor than Gardy.

4) His lack of fire. I'm not talking about his ability to get all riled up about a bad call. I'm talking about what appears to be too high a comfort level with mediocrity.

I like a lot of things about Gardy, but I'm really in favor of this move. There seem to be several fiery options out there...guys who appear to hate to lose. Dougy Baseball (since I can't spell his last name) would be my first choices, but I wouldn't be unhappy with Kirk Gibson either. Terry Steinbach is being talked about, but he seems a little like Gardy 2.0 to me. I think they also have to consider that well over half of their starting lineup is likely to be Latin soon. They need to see if there are any excellent Spanish speaking candidates out there (Ozzie Guillen, anyone?), or if not, at least hire at least two as coaches.

Thanks for the memories, Gardy, but good move, Pohlads.

[JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]]

I think it's Mentkiewicz. (I totally went off memory and did not use Google)

I disagree with the "lack of fire" part. I think he just understood that the starting pitching wasn't there. Alarming stat of the day: Though the Twins scored 102(!) more runs than last year (Tom Brunansky. Who knew?), they only won four more games. Why? They only gave up 6 less runs. Now some of that is his reliance on guys like Burton, Swarzak and Guerrier, along with the fact that their best hitting lineup(s) is/are godawful in the field, but alot of that is just bad starting pitching.

My first choice: Pete Mackanin.
2nd: Ron Washington

Follow-up: Found a website that computes Pythagorian. According to Baseball's Pythagorian, The Twins should have won 75 games. That would have accomplished nothing, and in some years it would cause them to lose their 1st round pick if they signed a "Type A" free agent.

[Jester1534]

The media wants to force us into one of two camps...either it's Gardy's fault, or it's not because he wasn't given the right players. I actually think both statements are true. There's no question that Gardy wasn't given a team talented enough to make the playoffs. But I still think he underachieved. The roster was the main problem, but I also think Gardy turned an 80-85 loss team into yet another 90 plus loss team. Here are the issues I have with Gardy.

1) His inclination to always want to put the band back together. How many games were wasted this year as he tried to convince everyone that Kubel, Guerrier and Bartlett could still play?

2) His fascination with Mauer in the three hole. Mauer is a great hitter, but he there was really only a short period in his career that he was a real number three hitter, and it's the most important spot in the lineup. Mauer is not a power hitter...he's basically a contact hitter that uses the entire field. He belongs in the two hole, and as the youngsters continue to come up and establish themselves, further down in the lineup.

3) His disdain for defensive shifting. Shifting has been the most significant change in baseball the past few years, and Gardy has been way behind the curve. It was encouraging to see the club use the shift more this season, but from what I heard, this had a lot more to do with Molitor than Gardy.

4) His lack of fire. I'm not talking about his ability to get all riled up about a bad call. I'm talking about what appears to be too high a comfort level with mediocrity.

I like a lot of things about Gardy, but I'm really in favor of this move. There seem to be several fiery options out there...guys who appear to hate to lose. Dougy Baseball (since I can't spell his last name) would be my first choices, but I wouldn't be unhappy with Kirk Gibson either. Terry Steinbach is being talked about, but he seems a little like Gardy 2.0 to me. I think they also have to consider that well over half of their starting lineup is likely to be Latin soon. They need to see if there are any excellent Spanish speaking candidates out there (Ozzie Guillen, anyone?), or if not, at least hire at least two as coaches.

Thanks for the memories, Gardy, but good move, Pohlads.

I'll add one more LST that I think was the nail in the coffin for me and that's the refusal to play Danny Santana at SS the final month of the season, we needed to see if he could man short stop going into next year.

[Monster]

The media wants to force us into one of two camps...either it's Gardy's fault, or it's not because he wasn't given the right players. I actually think both statements are true. There's no question that Gardy wasn't given a team talented enough to make the playoffs. But I still think he underachieved. The roster was the main problem, but I also think Gardy turned an 80-85 loss team into yet another 90 plus loss team. Here are the issues I have with Gardy.

1) His inclination to always want to put the band back together. How many games were wasted this year as he tried to convince everyone that Kubel, Guerrier and Bartlett could still play?

2) His fascination with Mauer in the three hole. Mauer is a great hitter, but he there was really only a short period in his career that he was a real number three hitter, and it's the most important spot in the lineup. Mauer is not a power hitter...he's basically a contact hitter that uses the entire field. He belongs in the two hole, and as the youngsters continue to come up and establish themselves, further down in the lineup.

3) His disdain for defensive shifting. Shifting has been the most significant change in baseball the past few years, and Gardy has been way behind the curve. It was encouraging to see the club use the shift more this season, but from what I heard, this had a lot more to do with Molitor than Gardy.

4) His lack of fire. I'm not talking about his ability to get all riled up about a bad call. I'm talking about what appears to be too high a comfort level with mediocrity.

I like a lot of things about Gardy, but I'm really in favor of this move. There seem to be several fiery options out there...guys who appear to hate to lose. Dougy Baseball (since I can't spell his last name) would be my first choices, but I wouldn't be unhappy with Kirk Gibson either. Terry Steinbach is being talked about, but he seems a little like Gardy 2.0 to me. I think they also have to consider that well over half of their starting lineup is likely to be Latin soon. They need to see if there are any excellent Spanish speaking candidates out there (Ozzie Guillen, anyone?), or if not, at least hire at least two as coaches.

Thanks for the memories, Gardy, but good move, Pohlads.

I'll add one more LST that I think was the nail in the coffin for me and that's the refusal to play Danny Santana at SS the final month of the season, we needed to see if he could man short stop going into next year.

Gardy was forced to play some whacky lineups at times this year because of outfield problems but it seems like sometimes (from this box score and article reader) the way he used guys was a real head scratcher. You pointed out one of them with Santana not playing SS down the stretch. Seems super odd but I was paying attention the last couple weeks.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Great point, jester. After watching Santana's quick bat for a few games, it was clear to me that he belonged in the majors. But although I respected him for filling in in CF when we had nobody else, it was also clear to me that he was never going to be a CF. When Hicks was promoted, I thought "Great, now we have a real center fielder, and we can see what Santana has at SS". But it didn't happen. Hicks moved to a corner outfield position, and Santana stayed in center. Perhaps Gardy's strangest move.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I think it's Mentkiewicz. (I totally went off memory and did not use Google)

I disagree with the "lack of fire" part. I think he just understood that the starting pitching wasn't there. Alarming stat of the day: Though the Twins scored 102(!) more runs than last year (Tom Brunansky. Who knew?), they only won four more games. Why? They only gave up 6 less runs. Now some of that is his reliance on guys like Burton, Swarzak and Guerrier, along with the fact that their best hitting lineup(s) is/are godawful in the field, but alot of that is just bad starting pitching.

My first choice: Pete Mackanin.
2nd: Ron Washington

Follow-up: Found a website that computes Pythagorian. According to Baseball's Pythagorian, The Twins should have won 75 games. That would have accomplished nothing, and in some years it would cause them to lose their 1st round pick if they signed a "Type A" free agent.

Wow, out of left field with the Mackanin pick, Jason...gutsy call! I know he speaks Spanish, but what else do you like about him?

[JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]]

I honestly didn't know about him speaking Spanish. I like what he accomplished in his two stints as interim manager for the Pirates and Reds (inasmuch as an interim manager can accomplish something). I also like that he learned from underrated manager (and former Twin) Charlie Manuel. And I'm going to say it....you hear other teams in baseball and the other sports refusing to hire someone who didn't play for said team or in their system, why can't the Twins be one of those teams? Mackanin, Washington, Perlozzo are all great choices.

Mackanin had more career homeruns than Kelly and Gardenhire combined, so he must be a better manager, right? (lol)

I disagree with you about Santana. I think it's important to have Escobar and Santana in the lineup if they are both hitting, and Santana in CF makes more sense than Escobar playing there. One thing I will say about the 2015 Twins: Based on who is still under contract and/or team control, they will be able to field a lineup that can easily lead the majors in both runs and errors.

[Jester1534]

I honestly didn't know about him speaking Spanish. I like what he accomplished in his two stints as interim manager for the Pirates and Reds (inasmuch as an interim manager can accomplish something). I also like that he learned from underrated manager (and former Twin) Charlie Manuel. And I'm going to say it....you hear other teams in baseball and the other sports refusing to hire someone who didn't play for said team or in their system, why can't the Twins be one of those teams? Mackanin, Washington, Perlozzo are all great choices.

Mackanin had more career homeruns than Kelly and Gardenhire combined, so he must be a better manager, right? (lol)

I disagree with you about Santana. I think it's important to have Escobar and Santana in the lineup if they are both hitting, and Santana in CF makes more sense than Escobar playing there. One thing I will say about the 2015 Twins: Based on who is still under contract and/or team control, they will be able to field a lineup that can easily lead the majors in both runs and errors.

Totally disagree Jason, Escolbar is nice but he can play anywhere, he's actually to me the best utility player in the majors. He could've played third when Trevor broke his wrist and Santana short. Santana has a chance to be our short stop for the next 10 years, but we need to know if he can stick defensively and that's not a for sure thing. An example was dozier we found put he couldn't stick at short so we put him at second and if his name was Dustin pedoria he would have two gold gloves right now.