How come Pekovic and Martin don't make us any better?

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Kudos to Bloop for posing a revealing question. You can't argue that both Martin and Pek don't have excellent offensive stats. But you also can't argue that they make us better, because our record is virtually the same when they are in the lineup and when they are not. Contrast that with what happened when truly indispensable players, like Love and Rubio, were out for long periods of time in prior years...the team became non-competitive. I like a lot about both Pek and Martin's game, but you really can't argue with the results...they are both easily replaced in the lineup. While Bloop's thread question may have been rhetorical, I believe the answer is this...while both Martin and Pek provide great numbers on the offensive end, their deficiencies on the defensive end make them dispensable.

Here's the good news. The excellent offensive numbers both of these players have put up this year make them attractive in the trade market. We all know that this team needs good 2-way wings, and if either or both of Pek and Martin can bring one in return, that trade is likely to make us better.

Ideally I would pursue deals for Pek first. While I like both players, a shooter like Martin could be just what this team needs to provide a big spark off the bench. I'm not quite ready to buy Dieng's ticket to Springfield after 3 games, but I certainly like what I have seen. And the prospect of an elite SG in the starting lineup, Dieng/Turiaf providing tough interior defense, and Martin bringing his sharpshooting off the bench, makes me quite excited about the future.

While Love and Rubio are better players then pek and martin, to compare the two situations is not fair. Wolves were having to play guys on 10 day contracts 35+ minutes just to get through games when Love and Rubio were out

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Kudos to Bloop for posing a revealing question. You can't argue that both Martin and Pek don't have excellent offensive stats. But you also can't argue that they make us better, because our record is virtually the same when they are in the lineup and when they are not. Contrast that with what happened when truly indispensable players, like Love and Rubio, were out for long periods of time in prior years...the team became non-competitive. I like a lot about both Pek and Martin's game, but you really can't argue with the results...they are both easily replaced in the lineup. While Bloop's thread question may have been rhetorical, I believe the answer is this...while both Martin and Pek provide great numbers on the offensive end, their deficiencies on the defensive end make them dispensable.

Here's the good news. The excellent offensive numbers both of these players have put up this year make them attractive in the trade market. We all know that this team needs good 2-way wings, and if either or both of Pek and Martin can bring one in return, that trade is likely to make us better.

Ideally I would pursue deals for Pek first. While I like both players, a shooter like Martin could be just what this team needs to provide a big spark off the bench. I'm not quite ready to buy Dieng's ticket to Springfield after 3 games, but I certainly like what I have seen. And the prospect of an elite SG in the starting lineup, Dieng/Turiaf providing tough interior defense, and Martin bringing his sharpshooting off the bench, makes me quite excited about the future.

While Love and Rubio are better players then pek and martin, to compare the two situations is not fair. Wolves were having to play guys on 10 day contracts 35+ minutes just to get through games when Love and Rubio were out

You make a valid point, alex...our roster just wasn't very deep the past two years, and when our stars went down, there were no viable options to replace them. Hence the big drop off in winning percentage. Now when our stars go down we have enough depth that we don't miss a beat.

But I think that fact is also a solid argument for why Pek and Martin, in that order, are expendable and should be made available in any deal that can bring us a very good 2-way wing. We need to take advantage of our depth that we have created over the past year. The alternative is likely to continue to be a .500 team, and nobody wants that. But if no potential deals involving Pek and/or Martin that can clearly make us better are available, then I agree with you that they should stay. Flip can't be making deals just to make deals.. Pek and Martin can continue to be valuable pieces on this team, just not enough to get us to the next level.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Kudos to Bloop for posing a revealing question. You can't argue that both Martin and Pek don't have excellent offensive stats. But you also can't argue that they make us better, because our record is virtually the same when they are in the lineup and when they are not. Contrast that with what happened when truly indispensable players, like Love and Rubio, were out for long periods of time in prior years...the team became non-competitive. I like a lot about both Pek and Martin's game, but you really can't argue with the results...they are both easily replaced in the lineup. While Bloop's thread question may have been rhetorical, I believe the answer is this...while both Martin and Pek provide great numbers on the offensive end, their deficiencies on the defensive end make them dispensable.

Here's the good news. The excellent offensive numbers both of these players have put up this year make them attractive in the trade market. We all know that this team needs good 2-way wings, and if either or both of Pek and Martin can bring one in return, that trade is likely to make us better.

Ideally I would pursue deals for Pek first. While I like both players, a shooter like Martin could be just what this team needs to provide a big spark off the bench. I'm not quite ready to buy Dieng's ticket to Springfield after 3 games, but I certainly like what I have seen. And the prospect of an elite SG in the starting lineup, Dieng/Turiaf providing tough interior defense, and Martin bringing his sharpshooting off the bench, makes me quite excited about the future.

While Love and Rubio are better players then pek and martin, to compare the two situations is not fair. Wolves were having to play guys on 10 day contracts 35+ minutes just to get through games when Love and Rubio were out

You make a valid point, alex...our roster just wasn't very deep the past two years, and when our stars went down, there were no viable options to replace them. Hence the big drop off in winning percentage. Now when our stars go down we have enough depth that we don't miss a beat.

But I think that fact is also a solid argument for why Pek and Martin, in that order, are expendable and should be made available in any deal that can bring us a very good 2-way wing. We need to take advantage of our depth that we have created over the past year. The alternative is likely to continue to be a .500 team, and nobody wants that. But if no potential deals involving Pek and/or Martin that can clearly make us better are available, then I agree with you that they should stay. Flip can't be making deals just to make deals.. Pek and Martin can continue to be valuable pieces on this team, just not enough to get us to the next level.

Pek is absolutely a difference maker. You don't have 18-9 with good % and not be an impact player. Martin would be fine as long as we can find someone else to close games. He can still start, but it doesn't mean he has to finish. Manu and Harden with the thunder are examples of guys who don't start, but are always in at crunch time.

I'd rather find a sharpshooting 3 who can play D to finish games then Martin. You don't have to break the bank or trade Pek to get that guy though

[Lipoli390]

Alex -- The MLE is all we have to sign the type of two-way wing you are talking about. I honestly don't see us getting that sort of quality FA with the MLE this summer. We had to pay MLE type money to sign mediocre one-way wings like Brewer and Budinger. We had to give one-way Martin a 4-year deal worth $7 million per year - $2 million more per year than the MLE.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Lip's post sums up my thoughts, alex. We need a very good 2-way wing to get to the next level, and we don't have the cap room to get that done in free agency. We may target a potential guy in the draft, but 13th picks don't often make large contributions in the early going. So we have to look at available assets that night bring an elite wing in return, and there aren't many. As much as we'd love to think that other teams are drooling to add JJ, Dante, Shved, Bud, etc. to their rosters, we know they are not. The only four players who are potentially coveted are Love, Rubio, Pek and possibly Martin, and in my book the first two are untouchable. Martin and Pek have both provided great numbers this year, but I would argue that Martin's elite shooting is more difficult to replace.

I have a tendency to get attached to players I like, and Pek definitely fits into that group. But how easily the Wolves have adapted to his being out of the lineup this year has convinced me that his $12 million can be better spent elsewhere.

Alex, you have consistently made a case for keeping Pek, but I'm trying to understand how you want the rest of the roster to look. Are you comfortable with going into next year after just adding a draft choice to the existing roster (although we may not get that pick either)? If not, what assets would you offer to upgrade our roster?

[mjs34]

While Love and Rubio are better players then pek and martin, to compare the two situations is not fair. Wolves were having to play guys on 10 day contracts 35+ minutes just to get through games when Love and Rubio were out

We are currently playing Hummel, and he isn't as good as most of those ten day guys!

The simple truth is that this team adjusts easily to Pek being out, which tells you one of two things. Either Pek's defense is hurting the team a lot more than some think, or Pek is getting his numbers because of the system and the players around him. I think it is a little of both. I realize that Pek has a unique skillset of scoring down low, but most of those baskets can be finished by Gorgui, and the few that can't can be made up for on D. It isn't that Pek doesn't have value, but exactly the opposite. That is why we need to look to move him to a better fitting situation, and use his money to fill in our gaping hole for a SF or SG that can create his own shot and defend.

[The Rage Monster [enjin:8010341]]

My answer is pretty simple, playing only half the game (the offensive half) does not contribute to winning. Whatever they do on offense is given back on defense.

I would like to trade both of them although I wouldn't mind keeping Martin. He could be decent offense off the bench and his defense wouldn't be as important going against 2nd unit guys. Pek does nothing for me as a starter on this team so I'd trade him to the highest bidder, assuming there's a fair offer.

[bleedspeed]

I worry we have seen the best of Martin and over the next few years we will see a rapid decline.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

Man, I am actually shocked at the surprise from this board on our current situation. We put together a team full of offensive potency, knowing full well that none of them could play a lick of D. When was the last time a team like this has won anything meaningful?

Also, many of the same folks that are on the trading Pek bandwagon now were probably the same ones that thought it necessary to pay him last offseason based simply on what the market said he was worth. I guess my rule of thumb on situations like Pek last offseason are if you are paying a player a lot just because other players at his position make a lot (centers in particular), but you realize that in TRUE VALUE he is not worth the money (which I think was a bit divided on this board), then you have made a fools bet. "He is who we thought he was"....lot's of points, rebounds, poor overall defensive impact and lot's of missed games. I would have missed Pek, just because he is fun to watch, but I think he showed in seasons past that he simply isn't worth $12M per as it relates to total impact. Teams more often than not fall for the "can't afford to lose them for nothing" scenerio, and often times, it would have been better to simply walk away. Pek, in the end, is a role player (not a pillar), but is being paid like a superstar.

Martin, what can you say. His numbers have been down year over year for several years in a row, and we somhow thought this would change? He was/is still a serviceable player, but again, he just didn't really deliver the big skills we needed to make this team better.

I think Pek is probably tradeable, maybe to a team like Mil or NO, where they have a complimentary defensive forward next to him. I am hopeful that we can make a move in the offseason, but his injuries are going to scare away many suitors.

[thedoper]

Man, I am actually shocked at the surprise from this board on our current situation. We put together a team full of offensive potency, knowing full well that none of them could play a lick of D. When was the last time a team like this has won anything meaningful?

Also, many of the same folks that are on the trading Pek bandwagon now were probably the same ones that thought it necessary to pay him last offseason based simply on what the market said he was worth. I guess my rule of thumb on situations like Pek last offseason are if you are paying a player a lot just because other players at his position make a lot (centers in particular), but you realize that in TRUE VALUE he is not worth the money (which I think was a bit divided on this board), then you have made a fools bet. "He is who we thought he was"....lot's of points, rebounds, poor overall defensive impact and lot's of missed games. I would have missed Pek, just because he is fun to watch, but I think he showed in seasons past that he simply isn't worth $12M per as it relates to total impact. Teams more often than not fall for the "can't afford to lose them for nothing" scenerio, and often times, it would have been better to simply walk away. Pek, in the end, is a role player (not a pillar), but is being paid like a superstar.

Martin, what can you say. His numbers have been down year over year for several years in a row, and we somhow thought this would change? He was/is still a serviceable player, but again, he just didn't really deliver the big skills we needed to make this team better.

I think Pek is probably tradeable, maybe to a team like Mil or NO, where they have a complimentary defensive forward next to him. I am hopeful that we can make a move in the offseason, but his injuries are going to scare away many suitors.

Great post. I was on the bandwagon for paying Pek his market worth. My main issue with Pek has nothing to do with what Pek brings to this team. It is with his contract which can be blamed solely on Flip. The market spoke quite loudly that Pek was not worth 12 mil because he didn't get a single offer sheet from a team. Yet with no competition for his services we paid him 12 per. His "true" value could certainly be worth 12 mil in the right situation, but we held all the cards and in Flip's first test of his business savvy, he got bested by Pek's camp. I agree he is tradable at this point, but not from a point of leverage. Any trade we make for him we would likely be taking back less, or be taking on great risk with a problematic player. Flip has a long road to go this offseason. It will be fun to watch either way. If he takes on the appropriate amount of risk this offseason It could be a train wreck or a miracle run. But unfortunately, I feel like it will fit the Tayloresque theme of the status quo and nothing major will happen and Love will be gone before the deadline.