Next Years Bigs

[Lipoli390]

Gobert for Nurkic, #23, a future 1st is a trade that makes sense, and should happen in a normal world. There is no way TC hangs himself out to dry by doing that trade after what he gave away to acquire Gobert less than a year ago.

Many are high on Scoot. I'm not seeing it with him, especially the weird fit with Edwards.

Good points, Future. I want to believe in Scoot, but I have reservations about him that I’ve already expressed. His poor 3-point percentage, low free-throw attempts and scouting reports questioning his defense are all yellow cautionary flags for a #3 pick. I think you make a good point about the potentially wired fit with Ant. Scoot is typically referred to as an alpha dog. Edwards is also an alpha. Two alphas typically won’t work.

You might be right about TC’s reluctance to trade Rudy for pennies on the dollar. But for enough pennies, I can see him putting his ego aside and doing a deal. Think about it this way. If we assume that TC is smart, he has to have more doubts about the Rudy experiment than he had last summer. He’s also aware of the luxury tax cliff the Wolves are headed for in 2024. Again, assuming TC is smart, he’ll be willing to tacitly admit the Rudy deal didn’t work out rather than hang onto his mistake at the risk of hurting the team’s long-term prospects. TC has to know that he’ll ultimately be judged, not by the Rudy deal, but by the team’s success over time with Ant and Jaden.

If you're drafting someone third and he doesn't have an alpha dog mentality, don't draft him.


You gotta understand there will be nights where Ant doesn't have it. Someone has to have the chutzpah to step up and be that guy. A big reason why even fans of KAT are fine with him being dealt is because we've seen on and off the court that he carries himself as a beta even if he doesn't realize it. Role players you can find if you have smart management. Anyone who comes to the team now knows this is an Ant-based team, but the goal is to win, not simply to make Ant look great. If Scoot has that ability to wanna take over and at times, be that guy, that's a great problem to have. Ant and 14 betas isn't gonna win anything in this league. He needs 1, maybe 2 other people who have the same combo of alpha + star talent alongside him. The rest of the team can get in where they fit in.

WW2813. You’re persuaded me on the alpha issue. But I’m still concerned Scoot’s terrible 3-point shooting (27.5%) and not drawing a lot fouls. The latter is particularly troubling given Scoot’s physical gifts. Scoot’s athleticism and ball-handling and passing skills are obvious. But his deficits are troubling as a top 3 pick.

[Monster]

https://clutchpoints.com/_next/image?ur ... =3840&q=75

League executives believe Timberwolves planning to trade Karl-Anthony Towns

The team won’t be able to afford that, with Karl-Anthony Towns and Gobert combining for over $90 million in 2024-25. Dealing Gobert will not return anything close to what the Timberwolves paid to Utah. Other competing executives think Karl-Anthony Towns will be long gone ahead of the 2024-25 campaign. Some even believe Minnesota would jump at an opportunity in the next few weeks. 8 hours ago – via Eric Pincus @ Bleacher Report

Not sure how much stock to put in this report. It doesn’t come from a reliable NBA reporter like Woj. But it’s interesting.

FWIW Eric Pincus is a guy that was one of the cap guru guys for I think it was hoops hype. He reported on contracts etc. I’m not saying he is super legit but he has been around and for years seemed to ne just about reporting actual stuff not just rumors etc. Maybe he is at bleacher report and going all in on being more of a guy that does more and generates more clicks but just saying this since this guy isn’t just some dude nobody knows about. MIGHT be somewhat legit. The reality is that it’s mostly league executives making the same thought out leap many on this message have that the Wolves can’t afford everyone and Towns makes more sense to deal that Gobert or anyone else.

It kinda reminds me of last offseason for Utah. Does anyone else think they blow everything up if the trade package for Gobert is basically sole salalry matches and a couple lottery protected picks? They got an absolute haul for Gobert and Mitchell. Do I think Utah was thinking…hey this might not work we need to move one of those guys? Sure but the offers they got probably made moving one or both of those guys more palatable. This could happen with Towns. Maybe the Wolves are looking at options and some team basically gives them a young really talented player plus future salalry flexibility and a bunch of draft picks plus maybe another worthwhile player. Might be hard to pass that up. The idea of acquiring Simons in some sort of deal with Portland and draft picks plus maybe a guy like Nassier Little or something might be simply too good to pass up depending on how the Wolves value a guy like Simons. I like his stat line but I haven’t watched enough of him to say much more than I like his offensive skill set.

[Lipoli390]

https://clutchpoints.com/_next/image?ur ... =3840&q=75

League executives believe Timberwolves planning to trade Karl-Anthony Towns

The team won’t be able to afford that, with Karl-Anthony Towns and Gobert combining for over $90 million in 2024-25. Dealing Gobert will not return anything close to what the Timberwolves paid to Utah. Other competing executives think Karl-Anthony Towns will be long gone ahead of the 2024-25 campaign. Some even believe Minnesota would jump at an opportunity in the next few weeks. 8 hours ago – via Eric Pincus @ Bleacher Report

Not sure how much stock to put in this report. It doesn’t come from a reliable NBA reporter like Woj. But it’s interesting.

FWIW Eric Pincus is a guy that was one of the cap guru guys for I think it was hoops hype. He reported on contracts etc. I’m not saying he is super legit but he has been around and for years seemed to ne just about reporting actual stuff not just rumors etc. Maybe he is at bleacher report and going all in on being more of a guy that does more and generates more clicks but just saying this since this guy isn’t just some dude nobody knows about. MIGHT be somewhat legit. The reality is that it’s mostly league executives making the same thought out leap many on this message have that the Wolves can’t afford everyone and Towns makes more sense to deal that Gobert or anyone else.

It kinda reminds me of last offseason for Utah. Does anyone else think they blow everything up if the trade package for Gobert is basically sole salalry matches and a couple lottery protected picks? They got an absolute haul for Gobert and Mitchell. Do I think Utah was thinking…hey this might not work we need to move one of those guys? Sure but the offers they got probably made moving one or both of those guys more palatable. This could happen with Towns. Maybe the Wolves are looking at options and some team basically gives them a young really talented player plus future salalry flexibility and a bunch of draft picks plus maybe another worthwhile player. Might be hard to pass that up. The idea of acquiring Simons in some sort of deal with Portland and draft picks plus maybe a guy like Nassier Little or something might be simply too good to pass up depending on how the Wolves value a guy like Simons. I like his stat line but I haven’t watched enough of him to say much more than I like his offensive skill set.

Good point Monster. Whether the Wolves trade KAT or Rudy this summer should turn in part on what they can get for one or the other. If Portland truly intends to make a go of it again with Lillard then I would expect them to make both their #3 and #23 picks available this summer. I have no doubt the Blazers would be interested in KAT in exchange for the #3 pick along with Simons for KAT. Note, however, that the Blazers can’t trade a 1st-round in until 2028. So the Wolves would have to be satisfied with getting one or both of Portland’s first-round picks this year. I still see a realistic scenario for trading Rudy to the Blazers. They can use their #3 pick and Simons for an elite players like Jaylen Brown and substantially improve their center position by trading Nurkic, Little, Knox and their #23 pick for Rudy and perhaps the rights to Spagnolo. Maybe the Wolves could get one or two future second-round picks as well.

[Lipoli390]

Here’s another reason to trade Rudy rather than KAT this summer. If it’s true that League executives expect the Wolves to trade KAT this summer because of the luxury tax cliff in 2024, that’s going to drive down KAT’s value because League executives know the Wolves can’t realistically keep both bigs beyond next season. If the Wolves trade Rudy for salary relief this summer (which should be doable), then the team is better positioned to maximize the return on KAT if the team decides to trade him next summer because they won’t HAVE to trade him to avoid the second apron in 2024.

Another point is this. The Wolves aren’t desperate to add to add an elite player right now. They have Ant, Jaden and KAT and can bring back Slo Mo, Prince, Naz and NAW. The what’s really driving the need to trade one of our bigs are the 2024 tax penalties that will hit if the Wolves retain both bigs. Therefore, the point of trading one of them is to get salary relief for 2024. The Wolves can address that main driver by trading Rudy. There must be some teams that would trade salary relief for Gobert.

[Sundog]

As I’ve said in one of these threads, I’m fine with trading either of the big fellas… I’m not convinced of the arguments that trading one over the other is clearly the better path. Both are generational talents with significant weaknesses to their games. Both have pluses and minuses financially. Both fit team needs, but neither fit perfectly. All of what we’ve written in these threads (and more) is known to the Wolves leadership and, more importantly, to the other teams in the league.

[Lipoli390]

As I’ve said in one of these threads, I’m fine with trading either of the big fellas… I’m not convinced of the arguments that trading one over the other is clearly the better path. Both are generational talents with significant weaknesses to their games. Both have pluses and minuses financially. Both fit team needs, but neither fit perfectly. All of what we’ve written in these threads (and more) is known to the Wolves leadership and, more importantly, to the other teams in the league.

I wouldn’t call Rudy Gobert a generational talent by any stretch. KAT is arguably a generational talent as a big who is elite scoring from anywhere on the court, including shooting 40% from beyond the arc. His skill set at his size along with his scoring efficiency and consistency game to game make KAT elite. And two years ago, he improved his defense to the point where his defensive rating was the same as Rudy Gobert’s was last season. But even then I’m not sure he’s generational. Rudy’s nowhere close to anything I’d call a generational talent in my view.

It seems obvious to everyone except perhaps the Wolves front office execs that one or the other will have to be traded before the 2024-25 season. It strikes me that it’s better to trade one of them this summer rather than wait until next. In my mind, trading Rudy seems like a much better move than trading KAT, but I acknowledge that the argument for trading KAT based on the value we could get in return compared to what we’d likely get for Gobert is a strong one.

[Sundog]

Player A
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
NBA blocks leader (2017)

Player B
3× NBA All-Star (2018, 2019, 2022)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2018, 2022)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2016)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2016)
NBA Three-Point Contest champion (2022)

Maybe neither is generational, both are exceptional. That doesn’t change the fact that there are good arguments for trading or keeping either of them.

[TheFuture]

As I’ve said in one of these threads, I’m fine with trading either of the big fellas… I’m not convinced of the arguments that trading one over the other is clearly the better path. Both are generational talents with significant weaknesses to their games. Both have pluses and minuses financially. Both fit team needs, but neither fit perfectly. All of what we’ve written in these threads (and more) is known to the Wolves leadership and, more importantly, to the other teams in the league.

I wouldn’t call Rudy Gobert a generational talent by any stretch. KAT is arguably a generational talent as a big who is elite scoring from anywhere on the court, including shooting 40% from beyond the arc. His skill set at his size along with his scoring efficiency and consistency game to game make KAT elite. And two years ago, he improved his defense to the point where his defensive rating was the same as Rudy Gobert’s was last season. But even then I’m not sure he’s generational. Rudy’s nowhere close to anything I’d call a generational talent in my view.

It seems obvious to everyone except perhaps the Wolves front office execs that one or the other will have to be traded before the 2024-25 season. It strikes me that it’s better to trade one of them this summer rather than wait until next. In my mind, trading Rudy seems like a much better move than trading KAT, but I acknowledge that the argument for trading KAT based on the value we could get in return compared to what we’d likely get for Gobert is a strong one.

You're so gung-ho on selling off Gobert for pennies, that I am unsure if you even rationalize the potential difference between trading Gobert vs. trading KAT. One is the potential difference gain in value from a player for players + picks deal. Another is player culture, KAT impedes it. Whether others believe it or not, Goberts competitive spirit is far more aligned with Ant than KAT’S is. Another is the FO throwing the chest at Gobert, they won't accept being made fun of now. Another is the contract difference with Gobert and KAT moving forward with the new CBA.

Keep them all if I printed money. But I do not. You will have to choose one, I am leaning towards moving KAT for a big trade while you can, then utilizing Conley’s and Gobert's contract in trades moving forward to build more around Ant, Jaden, Naz, NAW. Those 4 would be 4 of my 9 core moving forward. Gobert, KAT, Conley, Anderson, Prince are holding those other 5 slots intermittently, keep them but plug and replace when possible.

[mjs34]

As I’ve said in one of these threads, I’m fine with trading either of the big fellas… I’m not convinced of the arguments that trading one over the other is clearly the better path. Both are generational talents with significant weaknesses to their games. Both have pluses and minuses financially. Both fit team needs, but neither fit perfectly. All of what we’ve written in these threads (and more) is known to the Wolves leadership and, more importantly, to the other teams in the league.

I wouldn’t call Rudy Gobert a generational talent by any stretch. KAT is arguably a generational talent as a big who is elite scoring from anywhere on the court, including shooting 40% from beyond the arc. His skill set at his size along with his scoring efficiency and consistency game to game make KAT elite. And two years ago, he improved his defense to the point where his defensive rating was the same as Rudy Gobert’s was last season. But even then I’m not sure he’s generational. Rudy’s nowhere close to anything I’d call a generational talent in my view.

It seems obvious to everyone except perhaps the Wolves front office execs that one or the other will have to be traded before the 2024-25 season. It strikes me that it’s better to trade one of them this summer rather than wait until next. In my mind, trading Rudy seems like a much better move than trading KAT, but I acknowledge that the argument for trading KAT based on the value we could get in return compared to what we’d likely get for Gobert is a strong one.

You're so gung-ho on selling off Gobert for pennies, that I am unsure if you even rationalize the potential difference between trading Gobert vs. trading KAT. One is the potential difference gain in value from a player for players + picks deal. Another is player culture, KAT impedes it. Whether others believe it or not, Goberts competitive spirit is far more aligned with Ant than KAT’S is. Another is the FO throwing the chest at Gobert, they won't accept being made fun of now. Another is the contract difference with Gobert and KAT moving forward with the new CBA.

Keep them all if I printed money. But I do not. You will have to choose one, I am leaning towards moving KAT for a big trade while you can, then utilizing Conley’s and Gobert's contract in trades moving forward to build more around Ant, Jaden, Naz, NAW. Those 4 would be 4 of my 9 core moving forward. Gobert, KAT, Conley, Anderson, Prince are holding those other 5 slots intermittently, keep them but plug and replace when possible.

I am not sure what you are using to measure some of these intangibles, but for the next 3 years of KAT and Rudy contracts there is only about 10 mil total difference. The fact that most on here and around the league believe KAT would bring back considerably more in value should tell us who we should keep.

Now Cool believes we would have a hard time moving Rudy at all, and I am not sure he is wrong on that. Plenty of chatter about KAT without any mention of his contract. Offensive players are what everyone looks for, and we have one of the best bigs when it comes to that (and he wants to be here). The draft picks are gone, but Rudy's salary is what worries me. I am also curious as to how much of our improved D was due to Rudy, and how much to improved play of Ant, McD and Anderson.

[Coolbreeze44]

I wouldn’t call Rudy Gobert a generational talent by any stretch. KAT is arguably a generational talent as a big who is elite scoring from anywhere on the court, including shooting 40% from beyond the arc. His skill set at his size along with his scoring efficiency and consistency game to game make KAT elite. And two years ago, he improved his defense to the point where his defensive rating was the same as Rudy Gobert’s was last season. But even then I’m not sure he’s generational. Rudy’s nowhere close to anything I’d call a generational talent in my view.

It seems obvious to everyone except perhaps the Wolves front office execs that one or the other will have to be traded before the 2024-25 season. It strikes me that it’s better to trade one of them this summer rather than wait until next. In my mind, trading Rudy seems like a much better move than trading KAT, but I acknowledge that the argument for trading KAT based on the value we could get in return compared to what we’d likely get for Gobert is a strong one.

You're so gung-ho on selling off Gobert for pennies, that I am unsure if you even rationalize the potential difference between trading Gobert vs. trading KAT. One is the potential difference gain in value from a player for players + picks deal. Another is player culture, KAT impedes it. Whether others believe it or not, Goberts competitive spirit is far more aligned with Ant than KAT’S is. Another is the FO throwing the chest at Gobert, they won't accept being made fun of now. Another is the contract difference with Gobert and KAT moving forward with the new CBA.

Keep them all if I printed money. But I do not. You will have to choose one, I am leaning towards moving KAT for a big trade while you can, then utilizing Conley’s and Gobert's contract in trades moving forward to build more around Ant, Jaden, Naz, NAW. Those 4 would be 4 of my 9 core moving forward. Gobert, KAT, Conley, Anderson, Prince are holding those other 5 slots intermittently, keep them but plug and replace when possible.

I am not sure what you are using to measure some of these intangibles, but for the next 3 years of KAT and Rudy contracts there is only about 10 mil total difference. The fact that most on here and around the league believe KAT would bring back considerably more in value should tell us who we should keep.

Now Cool believes we would have a hard time moving Rudy at all, and I am not sure he is wrong on that. Plenty of chatter about KAT without any mention of his contract. Offensive players are what everyone looks for, and we have one of the best bigs when it comes to that (and he wants to be here). The draft picks are gone, but Rudy's salary is what worries me. I am also curious as to how much of our improved D was due to Rudy, and how much to improved play of Ant, McD and Anderson.

Yeah, if it were totally up to me I'd probably trade them both. I'm not a big Rudy guy but I don't think it's realistic to find a buyer for him at this time. That leaves us with KAT to shop. And though I recognize how good of an offensive player he is, I dwell on what we could get in return and how that potential return could be diminishing. If KAT had a better on-court demeanor and leadership presence, I wouldn't want to trade him at all. But it's been 8 years and it's time for a split. I'd be excited about getting Simons, #3, and a future first.