What makes it even more impressive that NAW and Rudy rank so high in FG% against, is that both of them also prevent a lot of shots from even being taken...Rudy because of his reputation and elite rim protection, and NAW because of his extraordinary ability to slide over screens.kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:44 pm Best defended FG% (min. 200 defended FG)
39.5 - Nickeil Alexander-Walker
40.0 - Al Horford
40.6 - Isaiah Stewart
41.2 - Shai Gilgeous Alexander
41.2 - Herb Jones
41.3 - Rudy Gobert
42.1 - Chet Holmgren
42.1 - Karl-Anthony Towns
42.2 - Jrue Holiday
42.2 - OG Anunoby
Timberwolves defense
Re: Timberwolves defense
- AbeVigodaLive
- Posts: 10271
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Timberwolves defense
What the F is Towns doing on that list?
I know it's not the usual criteria for such things and he won't win for obvious reasons... but considering his reputation on that side of the ball... should he win Most Improved Player for the 2024 season if these sorts of defensive stats continue for the rest of the season?
That narrative is that Towns was among one of the worst defensive players in the league... and now he's grading out as one of its best.
Fair is fair. There's no Most Improved Player in history who made that kind of improvement on offense in the history of the mostly meaningless award.
I know it's not the usual criteria for such things and he won't win for obvious reasons... but considering his reputation on that side of the ball... should he win Most Improved Player for the 2024 season if these sorts of defensive stats continue for the rest of the season?
That narrative is that Towns was among one of the worst defensive players in the league... and now he's grading out as one of its best.
Fair is fair. There's no Most Improved Player in history who made that kind of improvement on offense in the history of the mostly meaningless award.
Re: Timberwolves defense
AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:08 am What the F is Towns doing on that list?
I know it's not the usual criteria for such things and he won't win for obvious reasons... but considering his reputation on that side of the ball... should he win Most Improved Player for the 2024 season if these sorts of defensive stats continue for the rest of the season?
That narrative is that Towns was among one of the worst defensive players in the league... and now he's grading out as one of its best.
Fair is fair. There's no Most Improved Player in history who made that kind of improvement on offense in the history of the mostly meaningless award.
Good points.
I don’t watch him enough and I’m not sure I thought SGA was a bad defender but this list has him as elite.
Re: Timberwolves defense
Excerpt from a Saturday Strip article on the Wolves. Rudy has been outstanding defensively this season. That’s great, but even better is the fact pointed out in the article that the Wolves have been very good defensively without Rudy on the floor.
106
Defensive rating when Rudy Gobert is off the floor.
Even by his lofty standards, Gobert has been a revelation on the defensive end of the floor. The three-time Defensive Player of the Year didn't receive any votes for the All-Defensive team last season, but now he's the betting favorite to win his fourth DPOY.
There's going to be skepticism that Gobert and the Wolves can keep this up in the playoffs, given that Gobert's Utah teams, which were always highly rated defensively, struggled at times in bad playoff matchups. That may have been because the defenders around Gobert couldn't pull their weight. Look no further than the on-off defensive numbers Gobert's last two Utah teams had. There was a difference of -11.9 in the 2020-21 season for the Jazz's defense when Gobert wasn't on the floor and -7.8 difference in the 21-22 season. For this season? Only -2.
This Wolves team is playing defense at a higher level without him than Gobert's previous Utah teams did, and it's a sign that if Gobert is injured in the regular season, the Wolves can weather that. It's also a sign that the defensive talent, specifically its ability to guard the ball, around Gobert is stronger than his Utah, and some of the worries about him getting played off the floor in a bad matchup might not come to fruition in Minnesota.
18th
Minnesota's defensive rebounding percentage ranking
Improving in this area was a high priority for the Wolves from a season ago, when they were 26th. They have taken steps, but if there's one area the Wolves can stand to improve, it's this. When the Wolves play half-court defense and limit opponents to just one shot, they are one of the toughest teams to play against in the league. They only hurt themselves at times by not cleaning up on the glass.
33.6%
What opponents are shooting from three-point range against the Wolves, tied for third-best in the league.
This is the area of the Wolves' defense where they might be on the lookout for some regression to the mean. There are some who think three-point percentage defense is largely a product of missing shots. But the Wolves might argue that their ability to contest shots on the perimeter is better than most teams, and their defense might play a role in that number. Keep an eye on this if opponents start to shoot better against the Wolves in the future, especially as the quality of teams they face increases.
106
Defensive rating when Rudy Gobert is off the floor.
Even by his lofty standards, Gobert has been a revelation on the defensive end of the floor. The three-time Defensive Player of the Year didn't receive any votes for the All-Defensive team last season, but now he's the betting favorite to win his fourth DPOY.
There's going to be skepticism that Gobert and the Wolves can keep this up in the playoffs, given that Gobert's Utah teams, which were always highly rated defensively, struggled at times in bad playoff matchups. That may have been because the defenders around Gobert couldn't pull their weight. Look no further than the on-off defensive numbers Gobert's last two Utah teams had. There was a difference of -11.9 in the 2020-21 season for the Jazz's defense when Gobert wasn't on the floor and -7.8 difference in the 21-22 season. For this season? Only -2.
This Wolves team is playing defense at a higher level without him than Gobert's previous Utah teams did, and it's a sign that if Gobert is injured in the regular season, the Wolves can weather that. It's also a sign that the defensive talent, specifically its ability to guard the ball, around Gobert is stronger than his Utah, and some of the worries about him getting played off the floor in a bad matchup might not come to fruition in Minnesota.
18th
Minnesota's defensive rebounding percentage ranking
Improving in this area was a high priority for the Wolves from a season ago, when they were 26th. They have taken steps, but if there's one area the Wolves can stand to improve, it's this. When the Wolves play half-court defense and limit opponents to just one shot, they are one of the toughest teams to play against in the league. They only hurt themselves at times by not cleaning up on the glass.
33.6%
What opponents are shooting from three-point range against the Wolves, tied for third-best in the league.
This is the area of the Wolves' defense where they might be on the lookout for some regression to the mean. There are some who think three-point percentage defense is largely a product of missing shots. But the Wolves might argue that their ability to contest shots on the perimeter is better than most teams, and their defense might play a role in that number. Keep an eye on this if opponents start to shoot better against the Wolves in the future, especially as the quality of teams they face increases.
Re: Timberwolves defense
From Alan Horton:
This is pretty incredible.
Over last 2 seasons -- in final 30 seconds of a 1-possession game -- MIN opponents are shooting 13.2% FG (5 for 38) & 0% 3PT (0 for 17).
Both marks lead the NBA.
This is pretty incredible.
Over last 2 seasons -- in final 30 seconds of a 1-possession game -- MIN opponents are shooting 13.2% FG (5 for 38) & 0% 3PT (0 for 17).
Both marks lead the NBA.
- Carlos Danger
- Posts: 2402
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Timberwolves defense
Good stuff Lip. Thanks for posting that Strib article.
It's great to see the Wolves more than holding court when Rudy is off the court. But possibly more analysis is needed in that regard. When Rudy is off the court, is the other team's best player/scorer also off the court? Could there be other explanations? IDK.
There is no doubt everyone on this team is buying into playing defense. I continue to be amazed at the culture change. Other than the KG years, I can't recall anything close to a respectable defense. The way this team just clamps down in the second half to close out games is something I once thought to be a pipe dream. To me, it all starts with Rudy since I cannot point to any other significant changes to our team other than adding the three time defensive player of the year. Some might point to supporting cast guys like McDaniels or NAW. But we had guys like Jimmy Butler, Josh Okogie and Corey Brewer in the past and they certainly didn't move the needle like this. I continue to believe is 80% Rudy and 20% others. I also hope we don't have to find out what this defense looks like if he goes down...
It's great to see the Wolves more than holding court when Rudy is off the court. But possibly more analysis is needed in that regard. When Rudy is off the court, is the other team's best player/scorer also off the court? Could there be other explanations? IDK.
There is no doubt everyone on this team is buying into playing defense. I continue to be amazed at the culture change. Other than the KG years, I can't recall anything close to a respectable defense. The way this team just clamps down in the second half to close out games is something I once thought to be a pipe dream. To me, it all starts with Rudy since I cannot point to any other significant changes to our team other than adding the three time defensive player of the year. Some might point to supporting cast guys like McDaniels or NAW. But we had guys like Jimmy Butler, Josh Okogie and Corey Brewer in the past and they certainly didn't move the needle like this. I continue to believe is 80% Rudy and 20% others. I also hope we don't have to find out what this defense looks like if he goes down...
Re: Timberwolves defense
Mike Conley offered an insight into this in a recent interview -- Tim Connelly and the collection of players he has chosen to put together. To have created in this juggernaut in only one year on the job is pretty damn impressive.
Re: Timberwolves defense
Jimmy Butler was on the floor with a 22 year old KAT, Andrew Wiggins and Jeff Teague - about as bad a defensive supporting cast as you’ll find. Corey Brewer wasn’t a good defender. He had great energy and got steals, but I recall speaking with an assistant coach at the time who confided that Corey wasn’t a good defender and he explained why.Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:00 am Good stuff Lip. Thanks for posting that Strib article.
It's great to see the Wolves more than holding court when Rudy is off the court. But possibly more analysis is needed in that regard. When Rudy is off the court, is the other team's best player/scorer also off the court? Could there be other explanations? IDK.
There is no doubt everyone on this team is buying into playing defense. I continue to be amazed at the culture change. Other than the KG years, I can't recall anything close to a respectable defense. The way this team just clamps down in the second half to close out games is something I once thought to be a pipe dream. To me, it all starts with Rudy since I cannot point to any other significant changes to our team other than adding the three time defensive player of the year. Some might point to supporting cast guys like McDaniels or NAW. But we had guys like Jimmy Butler, Josh Okogie and Corey Brewer in the past and they certainly didn't move the needle like this. I continue to believe is 80% Rudy and 20% others. I also hope we don't have to find out what this defense looks like if he goes down...
In contrast to those prior teams, the current team has Jaden McDaniels (one of the League’s best defenders), NAW (also one of the League’s top defenders) along with Edwards who, when locked in, is an outstanding defender. Troy Brown has always been a good defender as well. As Jim Pete said the other day, defense starts on the perimeter and no one can effectively guard the paint without good perimeter defense. No doubt Rudy has been fantastic defensively so far this season but he typically has two our three outstanding defenders on the court with him, not including KAT. And then we see KAT defending exceptionally well - not biting on pump fakes, staying in front of his man, etc. There’s way too much contributing to the Wolves #1 defensive ranking to allocate percentage contribution among players. Rudy’s certain a key, but NAW and Jaden are also keys. I could make the case that the single biggest contributor to the Wolves’ improved defense was the addition of NAW. His perimeter defense has been stifling.
Management and the coaching staff have set a culture of expectation and accountability, especially on the defensive end. It starts there. Having multiple excellent defenders - Rudy, Jaden, NAW, Ant, Troy Brown - reinforces and operationalizes the defensive culture established by management and the coaching staff. It’s a package deal that, in my view, can’t be disaggregated. The fact that the Wolves have played well defensively with Rudy on the bench underscores the multi-faceted nature of the team’s defensive success so far this season.
- Carlos Danger
- Posts: 2402
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Timberwolves defense
I decided to go back and refresh myself to find out how we got here. After reviewing the data, I will need to give more credit to coaching than I have in prior posts. Finch clearly did some work even before Rudy. Here is the data of Defensive Rating rankings for the last 10 years (from NBA.com):
Defense Rank/ Year/Coach
#30. 2014/15. Flip (this was the tank for Towns year)
#28. 2015/16. Mitchell
#27. 2016/17. Thibbs
#25. 2017/18. Thibbs (this was the Butler playoff season)
#24. 2018/19. Saunders (took over for Thibbs halfway)
#20. 2019/20. Saunders
#28. 2020/21. Finch (took over for Saunders about a third into season)
#13. 2021/22. Finch
#10. 2022/23. Finch (first year with Rudy)
#1. 2023/24. Finch
Really, all of Finch's full seasons have been around top 10 defenses. That's a dramatic turnaround from a bottom tier defensive team he inherited. I should have been giving him more credit.
Defense Rank/ Year/Coach
#30. 2014/15. Flip (this was the tank for Towns year)
#28. 2015/16. Mitchell
#27. 2016/17. Thibbs
#25. 2017/18. Thibbs (this was the Butler playoff season)
#24. 2018/19. Saunders (took over for Thibbs halfway)
#20. 2019/20. Saunders
#28. 2020/21. Finch (took over for Saunders about a third into season)
#13. 2021/22. Finch
#10. 2022/23. Finch (first year with Rudy)
#1. 2023/24. Finch
Really, all of Finch's full seasons have been around top 10 defenses. That's a dramatic turnaround from a bottom tier defensive team he inherited. I should have been giving him more credit.
Re: Timberwolves defense
Fascinating stats, Carlos. Thanks for posting. Coaching matters and Finch is a terrific head coach. I devoted part of my last post to praising TC for establishing an organizational culture of accountability and bringing in some key pieces. But it’s worth noting that this is still largely the team that Rosas built. He hired Finch, drafted Ant, drafted Jaden, kept KAT and signed Naz. He left under unfortunate circumstances of his own making, but he deserves gratitude from Wolves fans for what he left in his wake. So far, TC appears to be making the most of what he inherited.Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:52 pm I decided to go back and refresh myself to find out how we got here. After reviewing the data, I will need to give more credit to coaching than I have in prior posts. Finch clearly did some work even before Rudy. Here is the data of Defensive Rating rankings for the last 10 years (from NBA.com):
Defense Rank/ Year/Coach
#30. 2014/15. Flip (this was the tank for Towns year)
#28. 2015/16. Mitchell
#27. 2016/17. Thibbs
#25. 2017/18. Thibbs (this was the Butler playoff season)
#24. 2018/19. Saunders (took over for Thibbs halfway)
#20. 2019/20. Saunders
#28. 2020/21. Finch (took over for Saunders about a third into season)
#13. 2021/22. Finch
#10. 2022/23. Finch (first year with Rudy)
#1. 2023/24. Finch
Really, all of Finch's full seasons have been around top 10 defenses. That's a dramatic turnaround from a bottom tier defensive team he inherited. I should have been giving him more credit.