Thunder GDT

[FNG]

Now...let's talk about the reffing. Almost 50% of the posts in the GDT are about the poor calls, and I don't disagree. But we need to be realistic about why. Is there some big conspiracy theory in the NBA to help the smallest market in the NBA (OkC) win? Of course not. Big market teams sometimes get the breaks, but not little OkC. There are two reasons Shae gets calls and Ant doesn't: First, Shae knows how to draw fouls and Ant does not...we can complain about Harden-like behavior all we want, but we can't argue that it isn't effective. Ant needs to learn from the Shae's in the Association, and if he does, he will enter elite status. Second, Ant constantly whines about calls and Shae doesn't. I umpired baseball games for many years, and I can tell you that the more likable player always gets the close calls. Umpires and referees are proud of their work, and despise someone who criticizes them...and that's Ant's fault. Last night was not the referees' fault...there's no conspiracy here. It's all on Ant. He needs to shut up and quit whining on almost every offensive play. It's tiring for me as a fan, and I know it pisses off the referees. Ant, be more like Shae, and you'll become a better player.

It's a bit of a catch-22 though - Shai gets a favorable whistle so he's got nothing to complain about while getting 16 FTA. If he got Ant's whistle last night I think he'd be complaining just as much. He does seem to do what the NBA seems to want players to do to get foul calls with all the head snapping back, extended arm driving into defenders just to draw fouls. We've seen that from the hardens, Embiids, and CP3s (among others) over the years get lots of regular season calls this way. The refs seem to swallow the whistle on these foul merchants come playoff time and we've seen Harden, Embiid (although he's had poorly timed injuries as well), and even CP3 struggle in the playoffs when they're not getting the baited calls, so hopefully Ant playing the game aggressively and looking to score through contact versus trying to foul bait will pay off in the post season.

Ant had a really nasty play where Chet grabbed all arm on a dunk attempt (where they called the offensive basket interference) causing ant to miss the dunk and lose his grip on the rim, falling on his back. Luckily he didn't get hurt, but you can tell no one is afraid to recklessly challenge him since there is a high chance they won't call an obvious foul. I'd be pissed too if getting a shit whistle could lead to being injured. Also, we've seen KAT have no change in his whistle this year despite his overall complain level being much reduced (still has his moments and has a history of being a complainer though). He does complain too much and needs to pick his spots better, but it's gotta be tough defending Shai and getting whistled up for 10% of the contact that would still be a no call on Ant.

Some very good points here, Dave, and I hope you're right about the playoffs. I think often fans who love their team (or players themselves) think there is a conspiracy by the refs against their team...heck, even LeBron will say the Lakers never get calls, when we all know that isn't true. But there is no conspiracy. Shae gets the calls because he has learned from the best. We may hate the Hardens of the world, but the fact of the matter is that style of play is effective. Would we rather have Ant continue to play the way he does now...not trying to draw the fouls and then whining when he doesn't get them (often resulting in a 3-pointer the other way as the opponent plays 5 on 4)? Or would we rather have him play like Shae and Harden and do everything he can to actually draw the foul? It's a good question, but I come down strongly on the latter.

[Q-is-here]

I agree with Dave. If Ant starts foul-hunting, it's going to come back to haunt him in the playoffs where suddenly he stops getting the superstar treatment, assuming he is successful in getting it in the regular season. Just keep doing what you're doing Ant. I do agree with him speaking out though.

As for SGA, I actually think the majority of the fouls he drew were legit. He has a lightning quick first step and then uses that to his advantage to create contact. My big problems are the fouls the refs don't call on SGA. They have got to start calling him on that off-arm pushoff he does. It's his "go to" move every time a defender actually stays squared up on him and moves their feet.

If the refs are going to punish defenders for marginal contact on plays where SGA gets a step on them, then they need to call SGA for his pushoffs when the defender does stay with him. Either that or let 'em play. But the tight whistle can't just go in one direction.

[FNG]

Q, I think we're all in agreement here that there were several SGA fouls that were not called on him. And I think most of us would agree that the referees don't treat KAT as kindly when he pushes off. But the question I can't answer is "why". It's Fan Behavior 101 to assume the referees are prejudiced against your team, but I can't think of any reason they would be prejudiced against the Wolves in favor of the Thunder. I think it has to do with working the refs, and I suspect SGA has done it from Day 1 in the NBA. He has a good reputation with the refs, and KAT and Ant do not. I don't think the referees have a problem with a player going over to them during a free throw or timeout and pointing out something they should be looking for. Rudy does it. Conley does it. And as a result, I think they both get favorable calls. But Ant and KAT (or at least KAT before this season)

[FNG]

Q, I think we're all in agreement here that there were several SGA fouls that were not called on him. And I think most of us would agree that the referees don't treat KAT as kindly when he pushes off. But the question I can't answer is "why". It's Fan Behavior 101 to assume the referees are prejudiced against your team, but I can't think of any reason they would be prejudiced against the Wolves in favor of the Thunder. I think it has to do with working the refs, and I suspect SGA has done it from Day 1 in the NBA. He has a good reputation with the refs, and KAT and Ant do not. I don't think the referees have a problem with a player going over to them during a free throw or timeout and pointing out something they should be looking for. Rudy does it. Conley does it. And as a result, I think they both get favorable calls. But Ant and KAT (or at least KAT before this season) have a way of showing their displeasure in a manner that in a way tells they ref they are a dumb shit...and that pisses them off and makes them less inclined to treat them favorably. Ant needs to learn to seduce the referee if he wants to get more calls...the whining doesn't work.

What do you think, Q?

[Q-is-here]

Q, I think we're all in agreement here that there were several SGA fouls that were not called on him. And I think most of us would agree that the referees don't treat KAT as kindly when he pushes off. But the question I can't answer is "why". It's Fan Behavior 101 to assume the referees are prejudiced against your team, but I can't think of any reason they would be prejudiced against the Wolves in favor of the Thunder. I think it has to do with working the refs, and I suspect SGA has done it from Day 1 in the NBA. He has a good reputation with the refs, and KAT and Ant do not. I don't think the referees have a problem with a player going over to them during a free throw or timeout and pointing out something they should be looking for. Rudy does it. Conley does it. And as a result, I think they both get favorable calls. But Ant and KAT (or at least KAT before this season) have a way of showing their displeasure in a manner that in a way tells they ref they are a dumb shit...and that pisses them off and makes them less inclined to treat them favorably. Ant needs to learn to seduce the referee if he wants to get more calls...the whining doesn't work.

What do you think, Q?

In theory what you say makes sense, but in practice I'm not so sure given the histrionics guys like Doncic (10 FTAs per game on average) display. Why isn't he punished? But in general, I agree there isn't much upside to the on court complaining. But I question the downside as well....

I also think it's easier for refs to see fouls that happen on the way to the hoop or on the way up early in the shot motion. Embiid, SGA, and Harden back at his peak are able to draw the whistle because they use their body and arms to force contact in the early stages of their shot motion. It's just easier to see for the refs.

What happens with Ant is he tends to get fouled when both he and the defender are at the top of his shot motion at the rim. I hate to defend the refs on some of the fouls where our guy is clearly hit on the arm, but when there are multiple arms outstretched 11 feet above the floor, it's literally harder to see. And it happens so quick.

What the Tatums, Embiids, and SGAs have mastered is creating that early contact while they are still on the floor at eye level with the officials.

[Q-is-here]

Q, I think we're all in agreement here that there were several SGA fouls that were not called on him. And I think most of us would agree that the referees don't treat KAT as kindly when he pushes off. But the question I can't answer is "why". It's Fan Behavior 101 to assume the referees are prejudiced against your team, but I can't think of any reason they would be prejudiced against the Wolves in favor of the Thunder. I think it has to do with working the refs, and I suspect SGA has done it from Day 1 in the NBA. He has a good reputation with the refs, and KAT and Ant do not. I don't think the referees have a problem with a player going over to them during a free throw or timeout and pointing out something they should be looking for. Rudy does it. Conley does it. And as a result, I think they both get favorable calls. But Ant and KAT (or at least KAT before this season) have a way of showing their displeasure in a manner that in a way tells they ref they are a dumb shit...and that pisses them off and makes them less inclined to treat them favorably. Ant needs to learn to seduce the referee if he wants to get more calls...the whining doesn't work.

What do you think, Q?

In theory what you say makes sense, but in practice I'm not so sure given the histrionics guys like Doncic (10 FTAs per game on average) display. Why isn't he punished? But in general, I agree there isn't much upside to the on court complaining. But I question the downside as well....

I also think it's easier for refs to see fouls that happen on the way to the hoop or on the way up early in the shot motion. Embiid, SGA, and Harden back at his peak are able to draw the whistle because they use their body and arms to force contact in the early stages of their shot motion. It's just easier to see for the refs.

What happens with Ant is he tends to get fouled when both he and the defender are at the top of his shot motion at the rim. I hate to defend the refs on some of the missed fouls where our guy is clearly hit on the arm, but when there are multiple arms outstretched 11 feet above the floor, it's literally harder to see. And it happens so quick.

What the Tatums, Embiids, and SGAs have mastered is creating that early contact while they are still on the floor at eye level with the officials.

[KiwiMatt]

Q, I think we're all in agreement here that there were several SGA fouls that were not called on him. And I think most of us would agree that the referees don't treat KAT as kindly when he pushes off. But the question I can't answer is "why". It's Fan Behavior 101 to assume the referees are prejudiced against your team, but I can't think of any reason they would be prejudiced against the Wolves in favor of the Thunder. I think it has to do with working the refs, and I suspect SGA has done it from Day 1 in the NBA. He has a good reputation with the refs, and KAT and Ant do not. I don't think the referees have a problem with a player going over to them during a free throw or timeout and pointing out something they should be looking for. Rudy does it. Conley does it. And as a result, I think they both get favorable calls. But Ant and KAT (or at least KAT before this season)

FNG, all you can ask for is consistency. And we are not getting that.

As Dave says it's catch 22. Ant has every right to complain, because those missed calls were absolute howlers by the officials. And there is a level of danger to how Ant attacks the rim, so the least the officials can do is protect him and try and at least discourage defenders from taking him out in the air. At the moment it's the opposite. Opposition teams plan around playing hard and physical against Ant and KAT because they know they will get away with it more often than not. But why can't we play hard and physical against Shai? It has to be officiated fairly both ways.

But as mentioned, maybe come playoff time when those calls aren't called as often both ways, it may pay off for us because Ant and KAT will have the most experience dealing with that level of contact and finishing under duress.

[FNG]

Kiwi- I was as outraged as anyone about the missed calls, especially on the Ant dunk. But to the extent that there hasn't been consistency in how fouls are called, I think we have to try to understand why that is happening. I reject the idea that there is any kind of conspiracy against the Wolves and in favor of the Thunder...I can't think of any reason for that. So my conclusion is it must be something Ant is doing to cause the inconsistency. I don't think it does any good to blame the refs and not change our own behaviors...that's only going to result in the same thing happening. I fully agree with you that Ant has every right to complain when a foul isn't called, but I don't think exercising that right is helping him. My hypothesis is that Ant yells at the refs and makes that palms up frustration signal almost every time he drives to the hoop without a foul, even when it's clear to us that there was no foul. He loses credibility when he does that, and he probably irritates the refs with his constant whining.

Q makes a good point above when he questions why a serial whiner like Luka gets calls, and it's a fair question. I think the answer is stars get calls that wannabe stars don't, and Luka is considered a bona fide star in this league. You have to earn it. He averaged fewer than 7 free throw attempts his rookie year as opposed to 10 the past two seasons. Maybe someday Ant will be considered a bona fide star in the league, but now I think he is considered just a guy with a high ceiling and a lot of flaws. He would serve himself well to change his on-court behavior and quit constantly showing up the refs.

[KiwiMatt]

'NBA L2M determines no wrong calls in Wolves-Thunder game, disputing Anthony Edwards' claims. The L2M report from Timberwolves-Thunder last night was clean, as Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s hand on Anthony Edwards’ arm was deemed “marginal” contact."

This even though there is clear as day photo circulating of the Ant dunk where Shai is literally holding Ants left fore arm as he is attempting the dunk. If that's marginal contact then bugger me. That is the inconsistency I am talking about.

[FNG]

'NBA L2M determines no wrong calls in Wolves-Thunder game, disputing Anthony Edwards' claims. The L2M report from Timberwolves-Thunder last night was clean, as Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s hand on Anthony Edwards’ arm was deemed “marginal” contact."

This even though there is clear as day photo circulating of the Ant dunk where Shai is literally holding Ants left fore arm as he is attempting the dunk. If that's marginal contact then bugger me. That is the inconsistency I am talking about.

Yeah, that's absurd...I thought for sure that non-foul would have been on the L2M report.