Wolves Draft and Free Agency Grades

[60WinTim]

Carlos, I don't think anyone would dispute that in hindsight the offense ran better when one or more of Conley/JMac/Morris were on the floor. In fact, many of us were calling for less Milton fairly early on after it was clear he didn't have it. But that absolutely was *not* the plan heading into the season. Did you read the article Tim posted? They clearly stated and followed through on using Shake as their 9th man. Had he actually played like he did in Philly then the Wolves would have probably never had to make the moves they did and JMac would have continued being a 10th or 11th man spot player.

Yes, I looked at the link Tim provided. It was before the season started and there was nothing in there that stated they were bringing in Shake to be PG2. I recall interviews with Finch around that time and my recollection was Shake was brought in to be a scorer (replace Nowell). Yes, they liked that he had some PG versatility. But that's not the same as saying "you are my PG". Shake was/is a shooting guard - not a PG. According to Cleaning the Glass, Shake played PG 30% of the time. So, about 150 minutes total out of his 491 were PG. Jmac played PG 62% of the time or 338 minutes as PG (more than double Shake). Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Unfortunately, he did neither.

I think you are taking those number out of context. Shake was brought in to be Conley's backup, and there was hope he could develop into something more than just a backup. Shake's minutes as "PG" decreased as the season wore on because he was not being effective. And JMac started seeing more minutes, obviously at "PG", because Shake just wasn't getting the job done.

[Carlos Danger]

Carlos, I don't think anyone would dispute that in hindsight the offense ran better when one or more of Conley/JMac/Morris were on the floor. In fact, many of us were calling for less Milton fairly early on after it was clear he didn't have it. But that absolutely was *not* the plan heading into the season. Did you read the article Tim posted? They clearly stated and followed through on using Shake as their 9th man. Had he actually played like he did in Philly then the Wolves would have probably never had to make the moves they did and JMac would have continued being a 10th or 11th man spot player.

Yes, I looked at the link Tim provided. It was before the season started and there was nothing in there that stated they were bringing in Shake to be PG2. I recall interviews with Finch around that time and my recollection was Shake was brought in to be a scorer (replace Nowell). Yes, they liked that he had some PG versatility. But that's not the same as saying "you are my PG". Shake was/is a shooting guard - not a PG. According to Cleaning the Glass, Shake played PG 30% of the time. So, about 150 minutes total out of his 491 were PG. Jmac played PG 62% of the time or 338 minutes as PG (more than double Shake). Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Unfortunately, he did neither.

I think you are taking those number out of context. Shake was brought in to be Conley's backup, and there was hope he could develop into something more than just a backup. Shake's minutes as "PG" decreased as the season wore on because he was not being effective. And JMac started seeing more minutes, obviously at "PG", because Shake just wasn't getting the job done.

When Conley missed games, they didn't replace him with Shake. They replaced him with NAW. I never saw Shake as a PG or as Conley's backup. He's a SG. You have a right to your opinions. I have a right to disagree. We are obviously not going to change each other's minds on this.

[Q-is-here]

Yes, I looked at the link Tim provided. It was before the season started and there was nothing in there that stated they were bringing in Shake to be PG2. I recall interviews with Finch around that time and my recollection was Shake was brought in to be a scorer (replace Nowell). Yes, they liked that he had some PG versatility. But that's not the same as saying "you are my PG". Shake was/is a shooting guard - not a PG. According to Cleaning the Glass, Shake played PG 30% of the time. So, about 150 minutes total out of his 491 were PG. Jmac played PG 62% of the time or 338 minutes as PG (more than double Shake). Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Unfortunately, he did neither.

I think you are taking those number out of context. Shake was brought in to be Conley's backup, and there was hope he could develop into something more than just a backup. Shake's minutes as "PG" decreased as the season wore on because he was not being effective. And JMac started seeing more minutes, obviously at "PG", because Shake just wasn't getting the job done.

When Conley missed games, they didn't replace him with Shake. They replaced him with NAW. I never saw Shake as a PG or as Conley's backup. He's a SG. You have a right to your opinions. I have a right to disagree. We are obviously not going to change each other's minds on this.

Basically what you are stating is that by hell or high water, JMac was "PG2" because all the other guys ahead of him except for Mike Conley weren't true PGs. By that logic, I'm going to call Jesse Edwards C2 because he's the only other pure Center on the roster heading into '24-25! But he has about 5 other "bigs" ahead of him in the rotation.

The reality is Jmac played minimal minutes to start the season because Milton was ahead of him in the rotation along with Conley, Ant, and NAW. Finch was fine not having a pure PG in the lineup, which renders the "PG2" label totally meaningless. Heck, even Conley played off the ball at times because he was such a good floor spacer for Ant.

Also, those positional designations by Cleaning the Glass and B-Ball reference are fairly subjective. Cleaning the Glass has Kyle Anderson playing 0 minutes as PG last season. Anyone that watched the Wolves knew that he was the de facto PG when he was in the game and Conley wasn't. And what about when NAW and Ant were in the game without Anderson or Conley? I would argue NAW and Ant shared PG duties and you could basically just flip a coin as to who should be given the PG or SG designation.

You are arguing about semantics and not actual on-the-court pecking order and hierarchy, in which Milton was clearly ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year. That changed once it was apparent Milton sucked and ran out of the rope Finch had given him to work his way out of his rut.

[kekgeek]

With approximately 2 minutes left in the first Q of the first game of the year. The wolves had 4 of their 5 staters out of the game for the first time of the year. The lineup was Shake/Brown/kyle/naz/towns. Second game of the year with about 1 minute left first time 4 starters are off the floor the lineup was Shake/Brown/Kyle/Naz/Kat, 3rd game of the year Jaden is back now. To start the 2nd quarter first time the wolves have 4 bench players in the lineup was Shake/Naw/Kyle/Naz/Rudy. 4th game of the year the same Shake/Naw/Kyle/Naz/Rudy. 5th game of the year late in the first quarter the Wolves had the Shake/Naw/Kyle/Naz/Rudy lineup.


Mike Conley did not miss a game until game 37. At that time Shake was mostly out of the rotation missing 6 of his last 12 games due to coaches decision. And only 2 games he played more than 10 minutes.

Jmac was a DNP coaches decision game 1, game 2 Jmac plays the last 4 minutes of the first half with Ant/kyle/towns/rudy and then 2 minutes of garbage time. Game 3, 4, 5 he only played garbage time.

I think it is pretty clear that Shake was the backup PG to start the year playing with other ball handlers like Kyle with him. Is Shake a natural PG, no. But the plan was for him to be the backup PG and be struggled at that

[Carlos Danger]

Basically what you are stating is that by hell or high water, JMac was "PG2" because all the other guys ahead of him except for Mike Conley weren't true PGs. By that logic, I'm going to call Jesse Edwards C2 because he's the only other pure Center on the roster heading into '24-25! But he has about 5 other "bigs" ahead of him in the rotation.

The reality is Jmac played minimal minutes to start the season because Milton was ahead of him in the rotation along with Conley, Ant, and NAW. Finch was fine not having a pure PG in the lineup, which renders the "PG2" label totally meaningless. Heck, even Conley played off the ball at times because he was such a good floor spacer for Ant.

Also, those positional designations by Cleaning the Glass and B-Ball reference are fairly subjective. Cleaning the Glass has Kyle Anderson playing 0 minutes as PG last season. Anyone that watched the Wolves knew that he was the de facto PG when he was in the game and Conley wasn't. And what about when NAW and Ant were in the game without Anderson or Conley? I would argue NAW and Ant shared PG duties and you could basically just flip a coin as to who should be given the PG or SG designation.

You are arguing about semantics and not actual on-the-court pecking order and hierarchy, in which Milton was clearly ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year. That changed once it was apparent Milton sucked and ran out of the rope Finch had given him to work his way out of his rut.

I'm saying Jmac was hurt for the first couple months of the year. So your argument of "Shake played PG" isn't the end all.
You can claim that Shake had lost his job by the time that Jmac got healthy. That's seems very convenient to your argument. I'll say it again...Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Your argument about NAW, Anderson and Edwards playing PG just further proves my point that Shake wasn't the guy running the offense. How many PGs did they have for Gawd's sake!!

[Q-is-here]

Basically what you are stating is that by hell or high water, JMac was "PG2" because all the other guys ahead of him except for Mike Conley weren't true PGs. By that logic, I'm going to call Jesse Edwards C2 because he's the only other pure Center on the roster heading into '24-25! But he has about 5 other "bigs" ahead of him in the rotation.

The reality is Jmac played minimal minutes to start the season because Milton was ahead of him in the rotation along with Conley, Ant, and NAW. Finch was fine not having a pure PG in the lineup, which renders the "PG2" label totally meaningless. Heck, even Conley played off the ball at times because he was such a good floor spacer for Ant.

Also, those positional designations by Cleaning the Glass and B-Ball reference are fairly subjective. Cleaning the Glass has Kyle Anderson playing 0 minutes as PG last season. Anyone that watched the Wolves knew that he was the de facto PG when he was in the game and Conley wasn't. And what about when NAW and Ant were in the game without Anderson or Conley? I would argue NAW and Ant shared PG duties and you could basically just flip a coin as to who should be given the PG or SG designation.

You are arguing about semantics and not actual on-the-court pecking order and hierarchy, in which Milton was clearly ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year. That changed once it was apparent Milton sucked and ran out of the rope Finch had given him to work his way out of his rut.

I'm saying Jmac was hurt for the first couple months of the year. So your argument of "Shake played PG" isn't the end all.
You can claim that Shake had lost his job by the time that Jmac got healthy. That's seems very convenient to your argument. I'll say it again...Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Your argument about NAW, Anderson and Edwards playing PG just further proves my point that Shake wasn't the guy running the offense. How many PGs did they have for Gawd's sake!!

I think what Monster and others are saying is that by dint of Finch using Shake as a combo guard off the bench and prioritizing him over a traditional ball-security PG, there simply weren't enough minutes to go around for JMac to play as evidenced by those first few games. You're right that it didn't make Shake "The Official Backup PG of the Minnesota Timberwolves", but there is no question that Shake in essence bumped JMac from being in the regular rotation because Finch thought at the time that Shake's scoring skills were more important.

[Monster]

Basically what you are stating is that by hell or high water, JMac was "PG2" because all the other guys ahead of him except for Mike Conley weren't true PGs. By that logic, I'm going to call Jesse Edwards C2 because he's the only other pure Center on the roster heading into '24-25! But he has about 5 other "bigs" ahead of him in the rotation.

The reality is Jmac played minimal minutes to start the season because Milton was ahead of him in the rotation along with Conley, Ant, and NAW. Finch was fine not having a pure PG in the lineup, which renders the "PG2" label totally meaningless. Heck, even Conley played off the ball at times because he was such a good floor spacer for Ant.

Also, those positional designations by Cleaning the Glass and B-Ball reference are fairly subjective. Cleaning the Glass has Kyle Anderson playing 0 minutes as PG last season. Anyone that watched the Wolves knew that he was the de facto PG when he was in the game and Conley wasn't. And what about when NAW and Ant were in the game without Anderson or Conley? I would argue NAW and Ant shared PG duties and you could basically just flip a coin as to who should be given the PG or SG designation.

You are arguing about semantics and not actual on-the-court pecking order and hierarchy, in which Milton was clearly ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year. That changed once it was apparent Milton sucked and ran out of the rope Finch had given him to work his way out of his rut.

I'm saying Jmac was hurt for the first couple months of the year. So your argument of "Shake played PG" isn't the end all.
You can claim that Shake had lost his job by the time that Jmac got healthy. That's seems very convenient to your argument. I'll say it again...Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Your argument about NAW, Anderson and Edwards playing PG just further proves my point that Shake wasn't the guy running the offense. How many PGs did they have for Gawd's sake!!

I think what Monster and others are saying is that by dint of Finch using Shake as a combo guard off the bench and prioritizing him over a traditional ball-security PG, there simply weren't enough minutes to go around for JMac to play as evidenced by those first few games. You're right that it didn't make Shake "The Official Backup PG of the Minnesota Timberwolves", but there is no question that Shake in essence bumped JMac from being in the regular rotation because Finch thought at the time that Shake's scoring skills were more important.

"McLaughlin wasn't the primary backup to start the season last year that was Shake Milton getting those minutes."

Im not sure why this is so difficult. McLaughlin wasn't the backup PG to start the season or even in the rotation that's clear. I wouldn't bring this up but Carlos mentioned preseason stats at one point. McLaughlin played way less minutes in preseason than Shake and Shake started the last preseason game. Carlos there is zero evidence that McLaughlin was in the rotation to start the season whatsoever regardless of his position or Shake's position. Plus the point was that early in the season McLaughlin wasn't playing and Shake was playing guard minutes that you suggested McLaughlin was playing as a backup PG. Shake was playing minutes that typically would go to a backup PG regardless whether McLaughlin was out of the rotation or whether he was hurt or what position either guy played. Ultimately McLaughlin simply barely played for the almost 30 of the first Wolves games. He had very little impact on the Wolves on the floor for over a third of the season.

It's very clear the Wolves haven't considered McLaughlin as anything more than a 3rd PG for nearly all of McLaughlin's career. He has gotten opportunities to be more for 2 reasons. 1. Failings of other guards including Nowell, Shake and in the playoffs D'Angelo Russell. 2. He has preformed competently (or better) when called on except down the stretch in 2023 where he must not have been healthy because he was pretty bad.

This is all relevant because if you think Shake was a scorer then maybe you can see why they might be cool with just letting Dillingham do his thing with the 2nd unit because they have done that with Shake and Nowell. Fortunately I think Dillingham is a better PG type than either guy and is a way better 3 point shooter. He wouldn't be much worse defending than either guy despite being smaller. I don't think Shake last year at least early on was as terrible as others thought he was on D but he certainly wasn't exactly anywhere near an asset. The bottom line is Dillingham is gonna have to suck big-time to not get minutes regardless of either he plays as a scorer or PG or whatever guard. Besides it's not like the Wolves have someone awesome to take minutes from him at this point and that's a bit of a concern. The positive is they have some guys in Dozier and Nix that can at least come in and defend.

[Wolvesfan21]

I get what you are saying but that would have been such a huge risk. Nobody could have predicted this is what Tyus market was going to end up on. Letting Conley walk or not drafting RD would have been super risky for the short term and the long term praying Tyus market and agent messes up. I mean who could have predicted Kris Dunn getting a bigger contract than Tyus did this offseason. Way too risky in my opinion to play the low % play.

With hindsight sure Tyus for the min is a better option than dilly. However that is still a debate. Tyus took playing time over coming home. Can’t blame TC for that when the other option would have been so reckless

So reckless? TC lives in the fast lane. Speaking of huge risk and reckless, I think many TC moves to date could be described that way. While I am a bit surprised at Tyus signing for minimum, I expected his salary to drop as the supply of point guards increases every year and in the new Second Apron environment most of the teams that would value Tyus had little to spend. The one thing I've pointed out as there are lots of good players available at the minimum for patient teams. So signing Dozier was absolutely stupid. Extending Moore a year ago was stupid as it was clear a year ago he wasn't an NBA talent and he was overpaid. The RD trade is a high risk one. I don't know that any other team would have offered more for Conley than we did as most teams have little interest in a soon to be 37 year old at much more than the minimum and I thought we could have gotten him signed more cheaply. I won't quibble too much as I do like Conley, but had we signed him for $5 or $6 M a year, I'm curious would we have had the money to offer Tyus a comparable salary? Had we not made RD trade, we might have had more money to spend as RD is making between 6 and 7 M a year, plus the draft capital we regained might have opened up other options in addition to Tyus Jones, like DeJounte Murray, Tre Jones etc.

The Wolves are 17 million over the 2nd apron so I believe that even if they signed Conley to just the vet min and didn't trade up and draft Dillingham they wouldn't have been able to offer Tyus any more money. In addition if they don't trade up to draft Dillingham they probably draft someone at #37 and don't dump Moore's contract which isn't a big chunk of money over a vet min but that would be more towards keeping them there. The only way to get Tyus for more money than the vet min was a sign and trade. In addition it was pretty clear the Wolves would have drafted some sort of PG prospect. They may not have been so eager to play that guy right away as Dillingham. In that case maybe they end up signing Morris back and possibly for more than the vet min. Speaking of Morris he went to the Suns likely partly due to having a chance to be a starter. Now he is likely gonna be a backup again. Kinda sucks for him.

I'll add this...while I love Tyus Jones and getting him for nothing would have been a heck of an outcome I'm not sure he would have been the answer long term at PG either. The Wolves did need another bucket getter. Could they have found that somewhere else other than trading up for Dillingham? Yes that's possible (nobody here thought Tyus was gonna sign for the vet min) but there is risk in not making a move sooner rather than later. If I was running a team I know one of the issues I would have is being too willing to wait and see what happens. I would probably get some great deals in FA but I may miss out on some good opportunities for higher quality players sometimes. Connelly basically went all in on Dillingham. If he turns out to be the player they hope he is (even if it's not right away) then it will be a genius move. We will see.

Is Tyus really a bucket getter? Sure he can score but it's relatively a low bar. I'm a Tyus fan too, but I don't see him as a long term starter really on a championship team. His defense is also an issue as he's small and not very quick, not that Dillys isn't small either. Both would be, will be, picked on in the playoffs more then likely.

I'm kind of looking at Dilly as a boom or bust type of player each night. He might light it up with scoring and assists off the bench, he could also give up a bunch on defense. Lets hope he can at least be passable on defense by mid season. But the long term upside for sure goes to Dilly. He's got All Star offensive potential.

[Lipoli390]

I'm saying Jmac was hurt for the first couple months of the year. So your argument of "Shake played PG" isn't the end all.
You can claim that Shake had lost his job by the time that Jmac got healthy. That's seems very convenient to your argument. I'll say it again...Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Your argument about NAW, Anderson and Edwards playing PG just further proves my point that Shake wasn't the guy running the offense. How many PGs did they have for Gawd's sake!!

I think what Monster and others are saying is that by dint of Finch using Shake as a combo guard off the bench and prioritizing him over a traditional ball-security PG, there simply weren't enough minutes to go around for JMac to play as evidenced by those first few games. You're right that it didn't make Shake "The Official Backup PG of the Minnesota Timberwolves", but there is no question that Shake in essence bumped JMac from being in the regular rotation because Finch thought at the time that Shake's scoring skills were more important.

"McLaughlin wasn't the primary backup to start the season last year that was Shake Milton getting those minutes."

Im not sure why this is so difficult. McLaughlin wasn't the backup PG to start the season or even in the rotation that's clear. I wouldn't bring this up but Carlos mentioned preseason stats at one point. McLaughlin played way less minutes in preseason than Shake and Shake started the last preseason game. Carlos there is zero evidence that McLaughlin was in the rotation to start the season whatsoever regardless of his position or Shake's position. Plus the point was that early in the season McLaughlin wasn't playing and Shake was playing guard minutes that you suggested McLaughlin was playing as a backup PG. Shake was playing minutes that typically would go to a backup PG regardless whether McLaughlin was out of the rotation or whether he was hurt or what position either guy played. Ultimately McLaughlin simply barely played for the almost 30 of the first Wolves games. He had very little impact on the Wolves on the floor for over a third of the season.

It's very clear the Wolves haven't considered McLaughlin as anything more than a 3rd PG for nearly all of McLaughlin's career. He has gotten opportunities to be more for 2 reasons. 1. Failings of other guards including Nowell, Shake and in the playoffs D'Angelo Russell. 2. He has preformed competently (or better) when called on except down the stretch in 2023 where he must not have been healthy because he was pretty bad.

This is all relevant because if you think Shake was a scorer then maybe you can see why they might be cool with just letting Dillingham do his thing with the 2nd unit because they have done that with Shake and Nowell. Fortunately I think Dillingham is a better PG type than either guy and is a way better 3 point shooter. He wouldn't be much worse defending than either guy despite being smaller. I don't think Shake last year at least early on was as terrible as others thought he was on D but he certainly wasn't exactly anywhere near an asset. The bottom line is Dillingham is gonna have to suck big-time to not get minutes regardless of either he plays as a scorer or PG or whatever guard. Besides it's not like the Wolves have someone awesome to take minutes from him at this point and that's a bit of a concern. The positive is they have some guys in Dozier and Nix that can at least come in and defend.

You nailed it, Monster.

[Monster]

So reckless? TC lives in the fast lane. Speaking of huge risk and reckless, I think many TC moves to date could be described that way. While I am a bit surprised at Tyus signing for minimum, I expected his salary to drop as the supply of point guards increases every year and in the new Second Apron environment most of the teams that would value Tyus had little to spend. The one thing I've pointed out as there are lots of good players available at the minimum for patient teams. So signing Dozier was absolutely stupid. Extending Moore a year ago was stupid as it was clear a year ago he wasn't an NBA talent and he was overpaid. The RD trade is a high risk one. I don't know that any other team would have offered more for Conley than we did as most teams have little interest in a soon to be 37 year old at much more than the minimum and I thought we could have gotten him signed more cheaply. I won't quibble too much as I do like Conley, but had we signed him for $5 or $6 M a year, I'm curious would we have had the money to offer Tyus a comparable salary? Had we not made RD trade, we might have had more money to spend as RD is making between 6 and 7 M a year, plus the draft capital we regained might have opened up other options in addition to Tyus Jones, like DeJounte Murray, Tre Jones etc.

The Wolves are 17 million over the 2nd apron so I believe that even if they signed Conley to just the vet min and didn't trade up and draft Dillingham they wouldn't have been able to offer Tyus any more money. In addition if they don't trade up to draft Dillingham they probably draft someone at #37 and don't dump Moore's contract which isn't a big chunk of money over a vet min but that would be more towards keeping them there. The only way to get Tyus for more money than the vet min was a sign and trade. In addition it was pretty clear the Wolves would have drafted some sort of PG prospect. They may not have been so eager to play that guy right away as Dillingham. In that case maybe they end up signing Morris back and possibly for more than the vet min. Speaking of Morris he went to the Suns likely partly due to having a chance to be a starter. Now he is likely gonna be a backup again. Kinda sucks for him.

I'll add this...while I love Tyus Jones and getting him for nothing would have been a heck of an outcome I'm not sure he would have been the answer long term at PG either. The Wolves did need another bucket getter. Could they have found that somewhere else other than trading up for Dillingham? Yes that's possible (nobody here thought Tyus was gonna sign for the vet min) but there is risk in not making a move sooner rather than later. If I was running a team I know one of the issues I would have is being too willing to wait and see what happens. I would probably get some great deals in FA but I may miss out on some good opportunities for higher quality players sometimes. Connelly basically went all in on Dillingham. If he turns out to be the player they hope he is (even if it's not right away) then it will be a genius move. We will see.

Is Tyus really a bucket getter? Sure he can score but it's relatively a low bar. I'm a Tyus fan too, but I don't see him as a long term starter really on a championship team. His defense is also an issue as he's small and not very quick, not that Dillys isn't small either. Both would be, will be, picked on in the playoffs more then likely.

I'm kind of looking at Dilly as a boom or bust type of player each night. He might light it up with scoring and assists off the bench, he could also give up a bunch on defense. Lets hope he can at least be passable on defense by mid season. But the long term upside for sure goes to Dilly. He's got All Star offensive potential.

Yep I agree Tyus isn't a guy that's is gonna get you buckets that was the point I was making too.

Defensively Tyus has graded out as a good defender much of his career. He is a pretty strong guy too. Just because you are small doesn't mean you can't be a good defender. Fred Van Vliet is an excellent defender and he is smaller than Tyus. Pat Beverly isn't a big guy at all and was a heck of a defensive guard for quite a while. I wouldn't be worried about defense if Tyus was the starting PG...assuming father time didn't affect him on D which I don't think is a huge concern he doesn't rely on wild athletic abilities on either end.

For fun I looked up some stuff on Pat Beverly when he was younger. Video and pics from when he was in HS is arms look like twigs. He wasn't a big strong looking guy in college either from what I can tell. Even early pics of him playing for Houston he wasn't a big looking dude and he was into his mid 24 by then. Sure he has a 6'7" wingspan which helps but that was a guy that played a lot as a SG. Physical characteristics are obviously better to have than not but it's not everything. Beverly is obviously more of the exception to the rule as is FVV but it also shows there shouldn't be an excuse for a guy not to be able to play D just because they are small. Some guys just have a knack on that end just like some guys are simply better on offense.

There are also players that end up transforming themselves into top defenders that was somewhat unexpected. Dennis Smith Jr came in as a guy with offensive upside and now his calling card is defense. McDaniels wasn't considered a high level defender in college and that's his thing now. NAW's is an excellent defender. There are a number of guys that went from top scorers in college to carving out a long NBA career because they played D. Sure some of that is some of those guy don't/didn't have to do much on offense but still.