So What's Your Plan? The Offseason Roster Construction Thread

[Wolvesfan21]

I love Giannis. He’s one of my three favorite non-Wolves players in the League along with Steph Curry and Jalen Brunson. But I can’t remember the last time a team pushed itself over the hump to win a first championship by trading for a star in his 30s. And as great as Giannis still is, I see his body breaking down with the way he plays as he heads towards his 31st birthday next December. He was an iron man in his first few seasons playing nearly every game but since then he’s missed a lot of games each season, He’s played more than 67 games in only one of his last six seasons. Other than two years ago when he played 73 games, he’s played between 61 and 67 games in the other five of those six seasons. And that’s all when he was in his mid to late 20s. As great as he is, you don’t swap a ton of assets for Giannis. Given the penchant of Wolves fans to obsess over player flaws, I can imagine complaints we’d see on message boards about his free throw shooting and lack of any perimeter scoring. I can also imagine the complaints about him missing 20 games, which has been typical for him the past six seasons.

I’m just not interested in chasing stars in their 30s with huge offloading of assets to get them. That’s not what OKC or Indiana did. That’s not what the Celtics did. That’s not what Golden State did during their dynasty years. That’s not how you build a championship team. The Thunder traded an older star (younger at the time than Giannis is now) to the Clippers for a very young SGA and the pick they used to select Jalen Williams. We know which team came out on top.

I don’t really disagree with you but the Celtics traded for mid 30s Holiday and Horford and the pacers traded for 30 year old Siakam

Yes, but those are the exceptions. I’ll add that the Celtics didn’t give up any key players to get Jrue. they traded Robert Williams and Malcolm Brogdon and a couple picks. Similarly, the Pacers traded Nero’s, Bruce Brown and Kris Lewis along with picks for Siakam. None of those guys traded for Jrue or Siakam were as important to their teams as Jaden McDaniels is to the Wolves. And none of them had untapped upside like Jaden has. As a fan, I’m excited to see the players that McDaniels and TSJ will become in a couple years as they enter the prime years of their careers at the same time as Ant. Add Naz to that mix with the defensive anchor vet, Rudy Gobert. Then there’s Clark and Dilly. There’s the still 28 year old Donte on a cheap deal who could be a big help to the Wolves or a nice trade chip for a key role player.

Part of my thing is that I don’t like star chasing because it detracts from the joy of watching a team develops. As a Bulls fan who grew up in Chicago during the MJ era, I loved watching that team come together as the franchise drafted Jordan and then build around him by drafting Pippen and Grant — later drafting Kukoc. They build their core through the draft with players around the same age and then filled in the rest of the pieces in various way via trades and free agency but also drafting BJ Armstrong. Golden State did the same thing drafting Curry, Thompson and Green. They eventually signed Durant but only after they had won a championship and set the record for most wins in a season without him. And they acquired Durant via free agency rather than trading a boatload of talent and other assets to get him. OKC has build its current best NBA team in the same fashion. It’s not the only way to build a championship team, but it’s proven to be the most effective and most sustainable. The one thing that hasn’t worked well is trading massive assets for stars in their 30s.

Only Jordan and Pippen were on all 6 championship teams though. The pieces around them were very fluid as they kind of need to be. I get your sentiment though. You get attached to certain players as a fan, but that quickly shifts when others join your team.

[kekgeek]

My favorite flyer PG option is Lamelo Ball

LaMello, not Lonzo?

Yes LaMello. We are just hearing a ton about potential Trade and FA targets at PG. Personally I think every PG FA option is just a bandaid and not a great bandaid and I don’t think any FA PG will make an impact in the playoffs.

Then we have the rumored “available” PG trade targets in Garland, Ja, Young, D. Murray, Lamelo.

Of all those guys I don’t hate taking a gamble on Lamelo, he has all the skill sets to succeed. He might be a losing player but I think the wolves have a winning culture and him in the winning culture could make him a winner. Ball has played on shit teams, I mean his most common 5 man lineup this year consisted of Nick Smith/Josh Green/Miles Bridges/Mark Williams. Ball numbers are actually really good when he got to play with Brandon Miller and Miles Bridges what makes me think Ball could thrive if he is not playing with shit.

Of the flyers that the wolves could get in the trade market I like Lamelo by far the best even though it is risky

[Q-is-here]

My favorite flyer PG option is Lamelo Ball

LaMello, not Lonzo?

Yes LaMello. We are just hearing a ton about potential Trade and FA targets at PG. Personally I think every PG FA option is just a bandaid and not a great bandaid and I don’t think any FA PG will make an impact in the playoffs.

Then we have the rumored “available” PG trade targets in Garland, Ja, Young, D. Murray, Lamelo.

Of all those guys I don’t hate taking a gamble on Lamelo, he has all the skill sets to succeed. He might be a losing player but I think the wolves have a winning culture and him in the winning culture could make him a winner. Ball has played on shit teams, I mean his most common 5 man lineup this year consisted of Nick Smith/Josh Green/Miles Bridges/Mark Williams. Ball numbers are actually really good when he got to play with Brandon Miller and Miles Bridges what makes me think Ball could thrive if he is not playing with shit.

Of the flyers that the wolves could get in the trade market I like Lamelo by far the best even though it is risky

I sometimes wonder if Ant would have become a fairly unserious basketball player in the same way LaMelo is had he gone to a franchise like Charlotte. Fortunately, Gersson Rosas was starting to turn around the Wolves and between him and then Tim Connelly, made a number of moves to put Ant in a winning situation fairly quickly. Thank God for that!

[Lipoli390]

I don’t really disagree with you but the Celtics traded for mid 30s Holiday and Horford and the pacers traded for 30 year old Siakam

Yes, but those are the exceptions. I’ll add that the Celtics didn’t give up any key players to get Jrue. they traded Robert Williams and Malcolm Brogdon and a couple picks. Similarly, the Pacers traded Nero’s, Bruce Brown and Kris Lewis along with picks for Siakam. None of those guys traded for Jrue or Siakam were as important to their teams as Jaden McDaniels is to the Wolves. And none of them had untapped upside like Jaden has. As a fan, I’m excited to see the players that McDaniels and TSJ will become in a couple years as they enter the prime years of their careers at the same time as Ant. Add Naz to that mix with the defensive anchor vet, Rudy Gobert. Then there’s Clark and Dilly. There’s the still 28 year old Donte on a cheap deal who could be a big help to the Wolves or a nice trade chip for a key role player.

Part of my thing is that I don’t like star chasing because it detracts from the joy of watching a team develops. As a Bulls fan who grew up in Chicago during the MJ era, I loved watching that team come together as the franchise drafted Jordan and then build around him by drafting Pippen and Grant — later drafting Kukoc. They build their core through the draft with players around the same age and then filled in the rest of the pieces in various way via trades and free agency but also drafting BJ Armstrong. Golden State did the same thing drafting Curry, Thompson and Green. They eventually signed Durant but only after they had won a championship and set the record for most wins in a season without him. And they acquired Durant via free agency rather than trading a boatload of talent and other assets to get him. OKC has build its current best NBA team in the same fashion. It’s not the only way to build a championship team, but it’s proven to be the most effective and most sustainable. The one thing that hasn’t worked well is trading massive assets for stars in their 30s.

Only Jordan and Pippen were on all 6 championship teams though. The pieces around them were very fluid as they kind of need to be. I get your sentiment though. You get attached to certain players as a fan, but that quickly shifts when others join your team.

Note that Horace Grant was with the Bulls (and a critical part of the team) for all of the first three rings. Then Rodman replaced Horace as a critical part of the next three championships. Paxon was there for the first three and Kerr for the last three. Kukoc was there for the last three. So even the fluidity around MJ and Pippin had some significant continuity. And note how those players fit well with MJ and filled specific needs around him. But my main point, however, is that the Bulls did not get over the championship hump by trading any of their young talented players and/or picks for a 30-something star.

I think our front office should be focused on finding or identifying/developing our own Scottie Pippen or Klay Thompson to lock in with Ant as our core duo for the next 5-10 years along with a third piece like Horace Grant was for the Bulls or Draymond Green for the Warriors. We might have that guy in Jaden. Or maybe it will be TSJ or possibly Dilly. It only took a couple years for Jalen Williams as a mid first round pick to become SGA’s Pippen.

[Lipoli390]

My favorite flyer PG option is Lamelo Ball

LaMello, not Lonzo?

Yes LaMello. We are just hearing a ton about potential Trade and FA targets at PG. Personally I think every PG FA option is just a bandaid and not a great bandaid and I don’t think any FA PG will make an impact in the playoffs.

Then we have the rumored “available” PG trade targets in Garland, Ja, Young, D. Murray, Lamelo.

Of all those guys I don’t hate taking a gamble on Lamelo, he has all the skill sets to succeed. He might be a losing player but I think the wolves have a winning culture and him in the winning culture could make him a winner. Ball has played on shit teams, I mean his most common 5 man lineup this year consisted of Nick Smith/Josh Green/Miles Bridges/Mark Williams. Ball numbers are actually really good when he got to play with Brandon Miller and Miles Bridges what makes me think Ball could thrive if he is not playing with shit.

Of the flyers that the wolves could get in the trade market I like Lamelo by far the best even though it is risky

Thanks, Kek. I wasn’t sure. I actually agree with you. That’s the sort of bold move I’d welcome. If we’re going to give up a lot of assets for a single player to get us over the hump, it should be a player at a position and with skills that complement Ant and who is also similar in age to grow together with Ant and create a sustainable core duo for many years. LaMello would be the perfect complementary player for Ant as a gifted playmaker and ballhandler. He’s a good scorer as well. And he’s the same age as Ant.

[Lipoli390]

And as Cool mentioned, the Celtics traded for KG when he was 31. We could go back another decade to Houston trading for Clyde Drexler to be Hakeem's #2 guy in his early 30s. They won a title the year they traded for him.

I think one of the things that makes a Durant or Giannis trade unique is that you are bringing them into a team that has already had playoff success and an alpha in Ant.

Paul Pierce was already 31 when the Celtics traded for KG. Hakeem was nearly 30 when they traded for Drexler. Moreover, KG and Drexler were the perfect complementary players for Pierce and Hakeem respectively. In each case, the team was pairing a ball-dominant wing or guard with a non-dominant/relatively low usage big.

The situation with the Wolves is far different. We’d be trading for a 30+ year old player to pair with our 23 year old star and giving up a key young piece (Jaden) to get him. Moreover, Giannis and Ant are both ball dominant players. They need the ball in their hands a lot to take full advantage of their talents. So I actually don’t see Giannis and Ant as a particularly good fit. I come back to Kevin McHale’s mantra - it’s not the five best players it’s the five players who play best together. Of course we’re seeing McHale’s mantra play out this year in the form of OKC and Indiana. I’ll note also that KG missed very few games in the seasons leading up to when he was traded to the Celtics - very different from Giannis. I’ll also note that the Rockets won the NBA championship the season before they acquired Drexler so I don’t think we can say that acquiring him got them over the hump. Finally, think about who the Celtics and Rockets gave up for those two guys. Neither team gave up a player comparable to Jaden McDaniels even before factoring in Jaden’s still untapped potential.

Getting over the hump into the NBA finals, much less winning a title, by trading for a star in his 30s is historically rare. Trading for a 30+ star to pair with a 23 year old existing star would be unprecedented and trading someone of Jaden’s caliber, who is the same age as Ant, seems even more out of whack with how teams become champions. Meanwhile, the while the list of examples where trading for 30+ stars has failed is pretty extensive. And then I come back to Giannis missing around 20 games in five of the last six seasons when he was in his 20s. Star chasing is fun for fans but bad for business if your business is winning titles.

You make a good case here Lip, and indeed it's probably a long shot that we could even acquire Giannis.

It's interesting you talk about both needing the ball in their hands. I have heard pundit after pundit talk about getting Ant help in that regard - that he needs another ball handler and creator. By definition, that takes the ball OUT of Ant's hands more and allows him to space the floor, cut, come off pin downs, etc. Giannis obviously fits the definition of a guy that can do a lot of damage with the ball in his hands and potentially free up Ant to do more damage as an assist receptacle.

When I use the term ball-dominant I’m thinking of a player who needs a lot of time with the ball looking to score first and pass second. I associate Ant and Randle with that profile. Both are good passers, but they tend to hold the ball a lot and pass not to gain advantage for the team but only when they are stifled by the defense and feel compelled to pass. When I think of the sort of player Ant needs next to him, it’s an elite ball-handler who looks to facilitate as much as he looks to score. The key is having a guy with an elite handle who can take the ball-handling pressure off Ant’s shoulders but also keep the ball moving. Giannis is a get the ball, hold the ball and attack the basket guy. That’s what Ant is except Ant is also a step-back three guy. Giannis is in the mold of Randle but far more talented, although Randle is a better perimeter shooter and free throw shooter than Giannis.

I just see Giannis as the wrong guy at the wrong time for our franchise and not a good acquisition considering what we’d have to give up to get him.