Wolves vs OKC Plus Minus Ranks

[KG4Ever]

Yeah, Rudy is much maligned by the casual fan because of his stone hands and poor shooting. You'd think that with those two issues, he would be a liability on the court, but the numbers always prove otherwise. His defense is superb of course. But his impact on offense can't be overlooked. He is an elite screener, and it's notable how many times his pick frees up Ant for either a trey or a drive to the rim. And he keeps so many offensive possessions alive with either rebounds or tap outs (which don't show up in the box score). I thought our three best players against OkC were Rudy, Conley and Jaden. although Jaden's +/- suffered by always being on the court when SGA was out there. I'm not sure what happened to Ant on defense against OkC, but I thought he was terrible. And it's reflected in his disastrous -41, with only Donte worse. We need Ant to be a consistent 2-way player. We're not going anywhere if our star gets outscored by 41 points in a series!

By the way, Jaden, Rudy and Mike were our three best on/off performers for the entire playoffs.

Rudy has been tremendous and that trade was absolutely worth it to get us the regular season seeding and early round playoff success. I'm glad that KG4Ever is finally coming around to this fact!

But I am sympathetic to those that might be willing to part with him, so long as Connelly has his ducks in a row for a replacement. I think some of his +/- stuff, like everyone else, might be impacted by coaching decisions that sit him in unfavorable situations, thus propping up his On/Off numbers. Same goes for Mike Conley. Of course Ant is going to play through thick and thin and regardless of matchups, so when things go south against a superior team like OKC, he bears a big brunt of the +/- consequences.

Assuming we do keep him, I think his role needs to be downsized, both so that he has the energy to play with 100% effort when he's out there, but also to open things up and play more of a spread, ball-movement offense where everyone on the floor can actually catch and hold onto the ball!

There’s no denying the substantial positive impact Rudy has had on the Wolves. But I won’t concede that a team that won 46 games with a 20-year old 2nd year Ant, a 21 year old 2nd year Jaden and 22 year old Naz Reid would not have eventually made the Conference Finals and perhaps more simply though the improvement of those three players and some other personnel moves, draft picks and smart cap management. The Gobert deal was disruptive and not surprisingly we barely made the playoffs with 42 wins his first season here as KAT went down and the team adjusted. The financial impact of that trade eventually resulted in another disruptive trade of Towns two seasons later. And now we’re facing yet another possible disruptive trade for Durant. So yes, Rudy’s huge positive contribution is undeniable but trading for him wasn’t the only path to success from where we were at back then and perhaps not a sustainable path. I still think we grossly overpaid for Rudy compared to what I’d guess other teams were willing to offer but we’ll never know for sure. In any event, I can’t complain about the trade because the success we’ve had with him is as undeniable as his statistical contribution to that success. Would I have gone down a different path three years ago? Yes. Has it been fun to watch this team succeed with Rudy? Heck yes!

Notwithstanding my misgivings about the Rudy trade and whether we can win a championship with him as our starting center, I’m in the camp that favors keeping Rudy and gradually reducing his role to the extent we acquire/develop the personnel to make that transition work. If TC is offering Rudy as part of a package for KD, you have to ask whether Durant’s huge likely offensive contribution would be a net plus over the huge defensive contribution we get from Rudy. I’ll take the 32-year old defensive stalwart who is a great teammate, stays healthy, has helped his team get to the conference finals twice in a row, and wants to be here over a 37 year old who misses a lot of games, always seems unhappy, doesn’t want to be here and hasn’t made it to the Conference Finals since he was 29 years old playing with Curry, Thompson and Green.

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

[Phenom]

Rudy has been tremendous and that trade was absolutely worth it to get us the regular season seeding and early round playoff success. I'm glad that KG4Ever is finally coming around to this fact!

But I am sympathetic to those that might be willing to part with him, so long as Connelly has his ducks in a row for a replacement. I think some of his +/- stuff, like everyone else, might be impacted by coaching decisions that sit him in unfavorable situations, thus propping up his On/Off numbers. Same goes for Mike Conley. Of course Ant is going to play through thick and thin and regardless of matchups, so when things go south against a superior team like OKC, he bears a big brunt of the +/- consequences.

Assuming we do keep him, I think his role needs to be downsized, both so that he has the energy to play with 100% effort when he's out there, but also to open things up and play more of a spread, ball-movement offense where everyone on the floor can actually catch and hold onto the ball!

There’s no denying the substantial positive impact Rudy has had on the Wolves. But I won’t concede that a team that won 46 games with a 20-year old 2nd year Ant, a 21 year old 2nd year Jaden and 22 year old Naz Reid would not have eventually made the Conference Finals and perhaps more simply though the improvement of those three players and some other personnel moves, draft picks and smart cap management. The Gobert deal was disruptive and not surprisingly we barely made the playoffs with 42 wins his first season here as KAT went down and the team adjusted. The financial impact of that trade eventually resulted in another disruptive trade of Towns two seasons later. And now we’re facing yet another possible disruptive trade for Durant. So yes, Rudy’s huge positive contribution is undeniable but trading for him wasn’t the only path to success from where we were at back then and perhaps not a sustainable path. I still think we grossly overpaid for Rudy compared to what I’d guess other teams were willing to offer but we’ll never know for sure. In any event, I can’t complain about the trade because the success we’ve had with him is as undeniable as his statistical contribution to that success. Would I have gone down a different path three years ago? Yes. Has it been fun to watch this team succeed with Rudy? Heck yes!

Notwithstanding my misgivings about the Rudy trade and whether we can win a championship with him as our starting center, I’m in the camp that favors keeping Rudy and gradually reducing his role to the extent we acquire/develop the personnel to make that transition work. If TC is offering Rudy as part of a package for KD, you have to ask whether Durant’s huge likely offensive contribution would be a net plus over the huge defensive contribution we get from Rudy. I’ll take the 32-year old defensive stalwart who is a great teammate, stays healthy, has helped his team get to the conference finals twice in a row, and wants to be here over a 37 year old who misses a lot of games, always seems unhappy, doesn’t want to be here and hasn’t made it to the Conference Finals since he was 29 years old playing with Curry, Thompson and Green.

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

And yet, here they sit with Rudy, two WCF appearances, 2 nice draft picks next week, some really good young players on great contracts. TC has hardly pinned himself in a corner.

[rapsuperstar31]

Rudy has been tremendous and that trade was absolutely worth it to get us the regular season seeding and early round playoff success. I'm glad that KG4Ever is finally coming around to this fact!

But I am sympathetic to those that might be willing to part with him, so long as Connelly has his ducks in a row for a replacement. I think some of his +/- stuff, like everyone else, might be impacted by coaching decisions that sit him in unfavorable situations, thus propping up his On/Off numbers. Same goes for Mike Conley. Of course Ant is going to play through thick and thin and regardless of matchups, so when things go south against a superior team like OKC, he bears a big brunt of the +/- consequences.

Assuming we do keep him, I think his role needs to be downsized, both so that he has the energy to play with 100% effort when he's out there, but also to open things up and play more of a spread, ball-movement offense where everyone on the floor can actually catch and hold onto the ball!

There’s no denying the substantial positive impact Rudy has had on the Wolves. But I won’t concede that a team that won 46 games with a 20-year old 2nd year Ant, a 21 year old 2nd year Jaden and 22 year old Naz Reid would not have eventually made the Conference Finals and perhaps more simply though the improvement of those three players and some other personnel moves, draft picks and smart cap management. The Gobert deal was disruptive and not surprisingly we barely made the playoffs with 42 wins his first season here as KAT went down and the team adjusted. The financial impact of that trade eventually resulted in another disruptive trade of Towns two seasons later. And now we’re facing yet another possible disruptive trade for Durant. So yes, Rudy’s huge positive contribution is undeniable but trading for him wasn’t the only path to success from where we were at back then and perhaps not a sustainable path. I still think we grossly overpaid for Rudy compared to what I’d guess other teams were willing to offer but we’ll never know for sure. In any event, I can’t complain about the trade because the success we’ve had with him is as undeniable as his statistical contribution to that success. Would I have gone down a different path three years ago? Yes. Has it been fun to watch this team succeed with Rudy? Heck yes!

Notwithstanding my misgivings about the Rudy trade and whether we can win a championship with him as our starting center, I’m in the camp that favors keeping Rudy and gradually reducing his role to the extent we acquire/develop the personnel to make that transition work. If TC is offering Rudy as part of a package for KD, you have to ask whether Durant’s huge likely offensive contribution would be a net plus over the huge defensive contribution we get from Rudy. I’ll take the 32-year old defensive stalwart who is a great teammate, stays healthy, has helped his team get to the conference finals twice in a row, and wants to be here over a 37 year old who misses a lot of games, always seems unhappy, doesn’t want to be here and hasn’t made it to the Conference Finals since he was 29 years old playing with Curry, Thompson and Green.

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

Beasley was good in the regular season this year, but has bounced around the league and wasn't very good in the playoffs. Dlo has been trash, Vanderbilt was unplayable in the playoffs this year. Kat can't defend a chair.

[KG4Ever]

There’s no denying the substantial positive impact Rudy has had on the Wolves. But I won’t concede that a team that won 46 games with a 20-year old 2nd year Ant, a 21 year old 2nd year Jaden and 22 year old Naz Reid would not have eventually made the Conference Finals and perhaps more simply though the improvement of those three players and some other personnel moves, draft picks and smart cap management. The Gobert deal was disruptive and not surprisingly we barely made the playoffs with 42 wins his first season here as KAT went down and the team adjusted. The financial impact of that trade eventually resulted in another disruptive trade of Towns two seasons later. And now we’re facing yet another possible disruptive trade for Durant. So yes, Rudy’s huge positive contribution is undeniable but trading for him wasn’t the only path to success from where we were at back then and perhaps not a sustainable path. I still think we grossly overpaid for Rudy compared to what I’d guess other teams were willing to offer but we’ll never know for sure. In any event, I can’t complain about the trade because the success we’ve had with him is as undeniable as his statistical contribution to that success. Would I have gone down a different path three years ago? Yes. Has it been fun to watch this team succeed with Rudy? Heck yes!

Notwithstanding my misgivings about the Rudy trade and whether we can win a championship with him as our starting center, I’m in the camp that favors keeping Rudy and gradually reducing his role to the extent we acquire/develop the personnel to make that transition work. If TC is offering Rudy as part of a package for KD, you have to ask whether Durant’s huge likely offensive contribution would be a net plus over the huge defensive contribution we get from Rudy. I’ll take the 32-year old defensive stalwart who is a great teammate, stays healthy, has helped his team get to the conference finals twice in a row, and wants to be here over a 37 year old who misses a lot of games, always seems unhappy, doesn’t want to be here and hasn’t made it to the Conference Finals since he was 29 years old playing with Curry, Thompson and Green.

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

And yet, here they sit with Rudy, two WCF appearances, 2 nice draft picks next week, some really good young players on great contracts. TC has hardly pinned himself in a corner.

Well, we really don't know what our roster will look like for next season and if it will include Rudy. We also don't know if we'll have those draft picks either or we'll use them wisely. Every team has good young players but Finch doesn't seem to play the young guys much. I'm skeptical that all these TC moves will result in a championship. I hope I am just being overly pessimistic but I've been a Wolves fan since inception.

[FNG]

There’s no denying the substantial positive impact Rudy has had on the Wolves. But I won’t concede that a team that won 46 games with a 20-year old 2nd year Ant, a 21 year old 2nd year Jaden and 22 year old Naz Reid would not have eventually made the Conference Finals and perhaps more simply though the improvement of those three players and some other personnel moves, draft picks and smart cap management. The Gobert deal was disruptive and not surprisingly we barely made the playoffs with 42 wins his first season here as KAT went down and the team adjusted. The financial impact of that trade eventually resulted in another disruptive trade of Towns two seasons later. And now we’re facing yet another possible disruptive trade for Durant. So yes, Rudy’s huge positive contribution is undeniable but trading for him wasn’t the only path to success from where we were at back then and perhaps not a sustainable path. I still think we grossly overpaid for Rudy compared to what I’d guess other teams were willing to offer but we’ll never know for sure. In any event, I can’t complain about the trade because the success we’ve had with him is as undeniable as his statistical contribution to that success. Would I have gone down a different path three years ago? Yes. Has it been fun to watch this team succeed with Rudy? Heck yes!

Notwithstanding my misgivings about the Rudy trade and whether we can win a championship with him as our starting center, I’m in the camp that favors keeping Rudy and gradually reducing his role to the extent we acquire/develop the personnel to make that transition work. If TC is offering Rudy as part of a package for KD, you have to ask whether Durant’s huge likely offensive contribution would be a net plus over the huge defensive contribution we get from Rudy. I’ll take the 32-year old defensive stalwart who is a great teammate, stays healthy, has helped his team get to the conference finals twice in a row, and wants to be here over a 37 year old who misses a lot of games, always seems unhappy, doesn’t want to be here and hasn’t made it to the Conference Finals since he was 29 years old playing with Curry, Thompson and Green.

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

And yet, here they sit with Rudy, two WCF appearances, 2 nice draft picks next week, some really good young players on great contracts. TC has hardly pinned himself in a corner.

Haha, and the team we supposedly overpaid for Rudy is the laughing stock of the Association! I think most of us here would agree that the players we gave up were not a problem. Some were actually addition by subtraction, and the young talent in the trade (Kessler) is being shopped now by Utah. The picks sounded like a huge haul at first glance, but it turns out late first round picks are pretty much a crapshoot. And TC knew that a team anchored by Gobert and Ant was unlikely to ever have anything but a late first rounder. In fact, the draft analyst on a recent Dane Moore pod said pick 31 we have from Utah is considered much more valuable than the late first rounder they got from us.

[mjs34]

Lip, I agree with this. We had a really good core in place that could have reached the WCF on its own. Sure, Rudy might have helped get there quicker, but the trade really limits the Wolves ability to improve through draft, trades that require more draft capital than we have or capspace that Rudy took up.

And yet, here they sit with Rudy, two WCF appearances, 2 nice draft picks next week, some really good young players on great contracts. TC has hardly pinned himself in a corner.

Haha, and the team we supposedly overpaid for Rudy is the laughing stock of the Association! I think most of us here would agree that the players we gave up were not a problem. Some were actually addition by subtraction, and the young talent in the trade (Kessler) is being shopped now by Utah. The picks sounded like a huge haul at first glance, but it turns out late first round picks are pretty much a crapshoot. And TC knew that a team anchored by Gobert and Ant was unlikely to ever have anything but a late first rounder. In fact, the draft analyst on a recent Dane Moore pod said pick 31 we have from Utah is considered much more valuable than the late first rounder they got from us.

I wasn't worried about the players, but the picks are very valuable. The value comes in trade deals, and also realizing that hitting on one can get you a player like Jaden. You are not valuing them properly in what you wrote. Their value to the wolves is what they are without the Rudy trade. I myself find it doesn't matter because I don't believe this team is any better with Rudy than they would have been without the trade. 46 to 49 wins could easily be the result of Ant and Jaden maturing.

[Phenom]

2025 pick 17 + 31
2026 pick swap with Jazz
2027 no pick (owned by Jazz)
2028 own pick
2029 no pick (owned by Jazz)
2030 pick swap with Spurs (owned by Kings)
2031 no pick (owned by Spurs)

That is potential for 5 pieces in the next 7 years. That's not bad and is why I'm against putting 17 and 31 in a KD deal.