The Trade That Didn’t Happen - Thank You KD!

[FNG]

That probably was what was offered. This was written back on June 23...

"The most likely trade that the Wolves would have sent out for Durant would have included Rudy Gobert, Donte DiVincenzo, and possibly one or multiple of their young assets, including the 17th pick in the upcoming draft, Rob Dillingham, and Terrence Shannon Jr."

Wasn't Ant in that June 23 deal in addition? Otherwise it doesn't seem like enough , Abe, you said "this was written". By whom?

Kek posted earlier that TC did say "don't believe everything you read on the internet". And beyond the 30 second head start we get about who the next draft pick is going to be, I don't. That seems to be TC's MO...a blanket denial of all rumors without naming a specific one. There's a dance that the smart GMs do with the Windy's and Shams of the world...don't insult them or say they are dead wrong because you want them on your side, but don't give them anything meaningful. What possible benefit could TC derive from telling a guy like Windy the names of the guys he was dangling in a deal?

[Q-is-here]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

[FNG]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

I think that's a fair assessment, Q. But IF it were true, I think most of us here would lose a lot of faith in TC for proposing such a bad deal.

I value the opinions of the writers who have a real relationship with management...like Jonny Athletic, for instance. They are with the decision makers every day, and develop a level of trust with them. But I tend to ignore guys like Shams and Windy. Everyone got excited a couple months ago when Shams said definitively that a Durant deal was going to happen that weekend. Two weeks later, it still hadn't happened, but the fans had forgotten about his "scoop". I think guys like that throw a lot of crap out there hoping that something might be right. It reminds me of the economist who said he had correctly predicted 13 of the past 4 recessions!

[Lipoli390]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

I don’t see where Windy or the Suns have any stake in making TC look bad. That makes no sense to me. It may not be an accurate report but there’s certainly no reason to believe it isn’t. I’m happy the trade doesn’t happen. I wouldn’t judge TC entirely on any one transaction so I won’t judge him on a transaction he tried to make. I’ll give TC credit for not going through the deal based on Durant not wanting to come here. That’s a plus. But Durant’s hand in sabotaging deal doesn’t mitigate TC’s responsibility for offering a bad deal; it just spares all of us including TC the consequences. If you don’t think it was a bad offer from the Wolves perspective, then there’s no issue unless you think TC messed up by not doing the deal in spite of Durant’s sentiments. If you believe as I do that this offer was terrible for the Wolves, then it has to raise some concerns about TC’s judgment in certain areas.

[Lipoli390]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

I think that's a fair assessment, Q. But IF it were true, I think most of us here would lose a lot of faith in TC for proposing such a bad deal.

I value the opinions of the writers who have a real relationship with management...like Jonny Athletic, for instance. They are with the decision makers every day, and develop a level of trust with them. But I tend to ignore guys like Shams and Windy. Everyone got excited a couple months ago when Shams said definitively that a Durant deal was going to happen that weekend. Two weeks later, it still hadn't happened, but the fans had forgotten about his "scoop". I think guys like that throw a lot of crap out there hoping that something might be right. It reminds me of the economist who said he had correctly predicted 13 of the past 4 recessions!

FNG - I share your mistrust of reporter real-time “scoops” and prognostications, altogether I trust Windy more than Shams. Those sorts of real-time reports and prognostications are often based on false information from teams and/or agents seeking to gain advantage in negotiations. What makes this instance materially different is the fact that the report comes well after the fact when there was no advantage to be had by giving Windy false info. In addition, I’ve found Windy pretty reliable. Putting all that together with no strong reason to believe the report is false, tells me it’s probably true. And that says something I’d rather not believe about TC’s judgment in certain situation.

I still have a positive view of TC based on the full scope of what he’s done here. But while I see what Rudy has done for us I remain convinced we gave up too much for him. And I’ll add that we might ask ourselves how the Wolves would be doing under TC if he hadn’t inherited what Flip and Rosas bequeathed, including Ant, Jaden, Towns and Naz. So I have a positive view of TC, but there’s some additional context that I think matters when evaluating him.

[BloopOracle]

I believe that is the EXACT trade Tim and I said we would give as our final offer

[Q-is-here]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

I don’t see where Windy or the Suns have any stake in making TC look bad. That makes no sense to me. It may not be an accurate report but there’s certainly no reason to believe it isn’t. I’m happy the trade doesn’t happen. I wouldn’t judge TC entirely on any one transaction so I won’t judge him on a transaction he tried to make. I’ll give TC credit for not going through the deal based on Durant not wanting to come here. That’s a plus. But Durant’s hand in sabotaging deal doesn’t mitigate TC’s responsibility for offering a bad deal; it just spares all of us including TC the consequences. If you don’t think it was a bad offer from the Wolves perspective, then there’s no issue unless you think TC messed up by not doing the deal in spite of Durant’s sentiments. If you believe as I do that this offer was terrible for the Wolves, then it has to raise some concerns about TC’s judgment in certain areas.

I meant he has a stake in terms of his reputation and access to front office sources if he did make TC look bad. I was responding to FNG's point on Connelly having a stake in not spilling everything to Windy. By the same token, what benefit does Windy derive from putting stuff out there that might be total B.S. from a single source if it stains his reputation and access among front offices (and not just the Wolves)?

In other words, I actually agree that the reporting here might be fairly close to the mark since it's in Windy's self-interest to be fairly accurate on this stuff.

I will continue to judge TC by things that actually happen and the subsequent impact on winning, especially in the playoffs. A Kevin Durant trade never happened, so I have nothing to judge. The Rudy trade did happen and there were tangible results in the form of the best two year period in franchise history. I don't know what would have happened if we didn't trade Rudy, so I have nothing to judge in that case either.

[Lipoli390]

But doesn't Windy have something at stake too if he is single-sourced on this from the Phoenix side and then puts it out there and makes Connelly look kind of bad (because I agree, it feels like one young asset too many!).

The bottom line is we can't be 100% sure what was offered, but I doubt a guy like Windy puts something totally out of line out there.

Either way, the trade didn't happen and at the end of the day I'm not going to judge Connelly on trades that don't come to fruition.

I don’t see where Windy or the Suns have any stake in making TC look bad. That makes no sense to me. It may not be an accurate report but there’s certainly no reason to believe it isn’t. I’m happy the trade doesn’t happen. I wouldn’t judge TC entirely on any one transaction so I won’t judge him on a transaction he tried to make. I’ll give TC credit for not going through the deal based on Durant not wanting to come here. That’s a plus. But Durant’s hand in sabotaging deal doesn’t mitigate TC’s responsibility for offering a bad deal; it just spares all of us including TC the consequences. If you don’t think it was a bad offer from the Wolves perspective, then there’s no issue unless you think TC messed up by not doing the deal in spite of Durant’s sentiments. If you believe as I do that this offer was terrible for the Wolves, then it has to raise some concerns about TC’s judgment in certain areas.

I meant he has a stake in terms of his reputation and access to front office sources if he did make TC look bad. I was responding to FNG's point on Connelly having a stake in not spilling everything to Windy. By the same token, what benefit does Windy derive from putting stuff out there that might be total B.S. from a single source if it stains his reputation and access among front offices (and not just the Wolves)?

In other words, I actually agree that the reporting here might be fairly close to the mark since it's in Windy's self-interest to be fairly accurate on this stuff.

I will continue to judge TC by things that actually happen and the subsequent impact on winning, especially in the playoffs. A Kevin Durant trade never happened, so I have nothing to judge. The Rudy trade did happen and there were tangible results in the form of the best two year period in franchise history. I don't know what would have happened if we didn't trade Rudy, so I have nothing to judge in that case either.

We’ll just agree to disagree on this small point, Q. I’ll evaluate TC based on the full record of information, which includes things he wanted or tried to do as well as things he accomplished. There’s no getting around the fact that all those things reflect on his judgment. Some of what we’ve learned about what TC has tried to do actually reflect positively on him. For example, as bad as his offer for Durant was, he showed good judgment in not pulling the trigger on the deal when it was clear Durant didn’t want to come here. The following article provides another example.

https://www.si.com/nba/timberwolves/min ... ing-report

I give credit to TC for drafting Beringer at #17 but I also give him credit for two things related what didn’t happen in his pursuit of Beringer’s. First, having seen what we have in Beringer, I give TC credit for attempting to trade up to get him. Second, I give TC credit for being patient and restrained in his effort to trade up for Joan and not making a dumb deal he didn’t have to make to get him. Compare that to Rosas trading up for Darius Garland without knowing for sure whether he’d be able to draft him.

So I think someone in TC’s position should judged on all the information that speaks to that person’s judgment - the good and the bad. I remain high on TC because thus far I believe the good far outweighs the bad. And part of the good is something that’s impossible to measure quantitatively - i.e., building a winning and attractive culture for players. The fact that Naz re-signed here knowing that Randle would remain here and start ahead of him is one example of what TC has helped create - namely an organization where players want to be. Randle referred to last season as the most meaningful basketball he’s played in his career and he re-signed in what appears to have been a really easy decision for him. We all remember Rudy’s sort of melancholy post during the Durant saga in which Rudy appeared to lament his possible departure from the Wolves. All the players TC has drafted or acquired have been good people who are highly competitive and approach the game seriously.

I’m glad TC is here. He’s been terrific but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have weaknesses or isn’t prone to dunderhead mistakes.

[Monster]

Windhorst didn't say what the Suns would be giving up in that package. What if the Wolves were getting something in return? If nothing what would the Wolves have been able to do with 3 open roster spots and some more legit opportunities for playing time? I was always interested in Durant if there was a discount on assets because he wanted to come here. That wasn't the case. Also no way he Wolves end up with Durant, Randle and Naz all on the same roster. I'd guess Randle would have been moved in some sort of trade and the Wolves probably would have gotten something out of it. Imagine if they had traded that package for Durant and dealt Randle to the clippers for Powell...

Also wonder about the timeline of the Durant discussions and when the Wolves and when they did the draft workout in Chicago with Beringer? The Wolves seemed pretty enamored with Beringer and if they were as locked into him as they seem to have been (looks like for good reason) would they have given up a chance to get a guy they clearly thought could be a franchise building block?

Anyway it's a fun talker but mostly I'm ready to move on.

[FNG]

I listened to the Creen interview on Barreiro. He raved about Joan, just like he raved about Rob after last year's draft. He's a one-man TC cheering section!