McCarthy hurt...Wentz to start Sunday

[Monster]

Yes the overthrow was bad last game, but the slight underthrow to Jones was fine. If you expect perfect passes constantly you'll never be happy with any QB. It was a TD after all. A fine throw, perfect, no. And I'd rather see a slight underthrow and let the player make a play to be honest.

Overall I'd gave him a C grade based on his lack of experience and offensive problems we've had (mostly Oline). If this was year 3 or 4? Yeah sure I'd say be much more harsh. But he's been fine for an essential rookie.

The thing I was wondering is how close to 100% is he. He lost a ton of weight and obvious strength after his surgeries and he obviously has had to build back up. This ankle injury doesn't help either. I'm just thinking about his escapability and strength. That's actually where I'm a little disappointed out of everything. Not seeing that free rusher and then fumbling for instance (should probably sense that guy and just at least not fumble) or trying to break free from when the pocket collapses. He's been getting taken down fairly easily!

I was hoping to see a little more speed and strength in his scrambling, but again, I guess it's explainable. Give him another year to fully strengthen back up if not further from pre injury, I'm sure he'll get a bit quicker and stronger and he's just 22, so. Patience I guess.

If we are gonna focus on a couple plays then we should cut Hockenson who has had at least 2 dropped balls that would have certainly helped the team and possibly McCarthy.

As for McCarthy scrambling etc I think that's more about his lack of experience than anything physically. In game one there was a play he stepped up and scrambled and ran directly into a sack when the olineman was doing their job protecting him and and after the play they looked confused about what had happened.

At this time it's time for more data points.

I agree with all three of your points, Monster. The only reason I mentioned those two particular throws was in response to WFs statement that JJ makes the throws if he is given time. Those two stood out to me, but there were others. Anyway, we do need more data points, and we're probably not going to get them for a couple more weeks...or maybe even longer if Wentz is adequate and we go on a winning streak. Sunday night was a bad loss and it would be easy to be down on our club right now, but I think we have a good chance of winning the next three games if Wentz is only adequate. And we need to go 3-0, because the next four games after that look very tough.

IMO what Wentz does or doesn't do gives us data points too.

[Wolvesfan21]

Yes the overthrow was bad last game, but the slight underthrow to Jones was fine. If you expect perfect passes constantly you'll never be happy with any QB. It was a TD after all. A fine throw, perfect, no. And I'd rather see a slight underthrow and let the player make a play to be honest.

Overall I'd gave him a C grade based on his lack of experience and offensive problems we've had (mostly Oline). If this was year 3 or 4? Yeah sure I'd say be much more harsh. But he's been fine for an essential rookie.

The thing I was wondering is how close to 100% is he. He lost a ton of weight and obvious strength after his surgeries and he obviously has had to build back up. This ankle injury doesn't help either. I'm just thinking about his escapability and strength. That's actually where I'm a little disappointed out of everything. Not seeing that free rusher and then fumbling for instance (should probably sense that guy and just at least not fumble) or trying to break free from when the pocket collapses. He's been getting taken down fairly easily!

I was hoping to see a little more speed and strength in his scrambling, but again, I guess it's explainable. Give him another year to fully strengthen back up if not further from pre injury, I'm sure he'll get a bit quicker and stronger and he's just 22, so. Patience I guess.

If we are gonna focus on a couple plays then we should cut Hockenson who has had at least 2 dropped balls that would have certainly helped the team and possibly McCarthy.

As for McCarthy scrambling etc I think that's more about his lack of experience than anything physically. In game one there was a play he stepped up and scrambled and ran directly into a sack when the olineman was doing their job protecting him and and after the play they looked confused about what had happened.

At this time it's time for more data points.

I agree with all three of your points, Monster. The only reason I mentioned those two particular throws was in response to WFs statement that JJ makes the throws if he is given time. Those two stood out to me, but there were others. Anyway, we do need more data points, and we're probably not going to get them for a couple more weeks...or maybe even longer if Wentz is adequate and we go on a winning streak. Sunday night was a bad loss and it would be easy to be down on our club right now, but I think we have a good chance of winning the next three games if Wentz is only adequate. And we need to go 3-0, because the next four games after that look very tough.

We're just slightly favored this week. Think I saw 2.5 and 3 floating around. So say a 55% maybe 60% chance to win? I'm not confident about any games right now. The weakness clearly has been the OLine, if they play better we have a good chance, if not then I think we lose. I think we can count on the defense to be solid too, even if they got gashed on the ground last game. Really both our trenches were smelly turds last week.

[Wolvesfan21]

Yeah, overall the team hasn't played very well, and the OLine injuries have a lot to do with it. But I disagree that JJ has done well when he has been given time. Two particular passes come to mind. His TD pass in game 1 to Jones was timely, but the pass was not very good...Jones was 10 yards beyond the defender, and had to slow down so much on the underthrown ball that the play was nearly broken up. And then in game 2 he had Nailor 10 yards beyond the defender, and he overthrew him by 10 yards when we really needed a score...the cameras quickly shifted to KOC, and he couldn't hide the look on his face. Both times he was given all the time in the world, but he just didn't make the play. I cautioned everyone here about irrational JJ exuberance after his excellent 4th quarter against a poor Bears defense, and Game 2 went about how I expected it would. Actually even worse...I haven't seen anyone weigh in with a grade, but I gave him a D-, and that might be generous. I feel bad for the kid hurting his ankle after missing his rookie season with a knee injury, but I think Vikings fans might have to admit in a couple weeks that the injury was a blessing for the team. Wentz will likely not be pressured as much with CD back, and if he is, I think his vet experience will allow him to handle it better.

Or Wentz could stink up the place while JJ is out, and we can start focusing on the Wolves again. Let's hope not...it's way too early in the season to throw in the towel.

Yes the overthrow was bad last game, but the slight underthrow to Jones was fine. If you expect perfect passes constantly you'll never be happy with any QB. It was a TD after all. A fine throw, perfect, no. And I'd rather see a slight underthrow and let the player make a play to be honest.

Overall I'd gave him a C grade based on his lack of experience and offensive problems we've had (mostly Oline). If this was year 3 or 4? Yeah sure I'd say be much more harsh. But he's been fine for an essential rookie.

The thing I was wondering is how close to 100% is he. He lost a ton of weight and obvious strength after his surgeries and he obviously has had to build back up. This ankle injury doesn't help either. I'm just thinking about his escapability and strength. That's actually where I'm a little disappointed out of everything. Not seeing that free rusher and then fumbling for instance (should probably sense that guy and just at least not fumble) or trying to break free from when the pocket collapses. He's been getting taken down fairly easily!

I was hoping to see a little more speed and strength in his scrambling, but again, I guess it's explainable. Give him another year to fully strengthen back up if not further from pre injury, I'm sure he'll get a bit quicker and stronger and he's just 22, so. Patience I guess.

If we are gonna focus on a couple plays then we should cut Hockenson who has had at least 2 dropped balls that would have certainly helped the team and possibly McCarthy.

As for McCarthy scrambling etc I think that's more about his lack of experience than anything physically. In game one there was a play he stepped up and scrambled and ran directly into a sack when the olineman was doing their job protecting him and and after the play they looked confused about what had happened.

At this time it's time for more data points.

Hock has been overall a slight disappointment considering what we traded AND paid him. He just has to be better. He's just been kind of meh (based on his pay) these last couple years. He's paid to be a top 5 TE. Go be one.

[Monster]

Yes the overthrow was bad last game, but the slight underthrow to Jones was fine. If you expect perfect passes constantly you'll never be happy with any QB. It was a TD after all. A fine throw, perfect, no. And I'd rather see a slight underthrow and let the player make a play to be honest.

Overall I'd gave him a C grade based on his lack of experience and offensive problems we've had (mostly Oline). If this was year 3 or 4? Yeah sure I'd say be much more harsh. But he's been fine for an essential rookie.

The thing I was wondering is how close to 100% is he. He lost a ton of weight and obvious strength after his surgeries and he obviously has had to build back up. This ankle injury doesn't help either. I'm just thinking about his escapability and strength. That's actually where I'm a little disappointed out of everything. Not seeing that free rusher and then fumbling for instance (should probably sense that guy and just at least not fumble) or trying to break free from when the pocket collapses. He's been getting taken down fairly easily!

I was hoping to see a little more speed and strength in his scrambling, but again, I guess it's explainable. Give him another year to fully strengthen back up if not further from pre injury, I'm sure he'll get a bit quicker and stronger and he's just 22, so. Patience I guess.

If we are gonna focus on a couple plays then we should cut Hockenson who has had at least 2 dropped balls that would have certainly helped the team and possibly McCarthy.

As for McCarthy scrambling etc I think that's more about his lack of experience than anything physically. In game one there was a play he stepped up and scrambled and ran directly into a sack when the olineman was doing their job protecting him and and after the play they looked confused about what had happened.

At this time it's time for more data points.

Hock has been overall a slight disappointment considering what we traded AND paid him. He just has to be better. He's just been kind of meh (based on his pay) these last couple years. He's paid to be a top 5 TE. Go be one.

Idk if I agree with that. He came over and was fantastic for that partial season. Next season he has almost 1000 yards and over 90 catches which was top 5. Last year he was coming off an injury and had 62 targets but still ended up with 41 catches for 455 yards and no touchdowns. Last year was a slight disappointment because lack of TDs but the previous seasons he was pretty good. So he has had 2 top 5 seasons and one where he returned from a serious knee injury. This season he hasn't benn good but we are 2 games in with a rookie QB and poor oline play. I don't lose any sleep on those draft picks. Irv Smith hasn't done much since leaving and having him seems to have been worthwhile. Meanwhile look up what the Lions did with their draft picks for Hock.

[Wolvesfan21]

If we are gonna focus on a couple plays then we should cut Hockenson who has had at least 2 dropped balls that would have certainly helped the team and possibly McCarthy.

As for McCarthy scrambling etc I think that's more about his lack of experience than anything physically. In game one there was a play he stepped up and scrambled and ran directly into a sack when the olineman was doing their job protecting him and and after the play they looked confused about what had happened.

At this time it's time for more data points.

Hock has been overall a slight disappointment considering what we traded AND paid him. He just has to be better. He's just been kind of meh (based on his pay) these last couple years. He's paid to be a top 5 TE. Go be one.

Idk if I agree with that. He came over and was fantastic for that partial season. Next season he has almost 1000 yards and over 90 catches which was top 5. Last year he was coming off an injury and had 62 targets but still ended up with 41 catches for 455 yards and no touchdowns. Last year was a slight disappointment because lack of TDs but the previous seasons he was pretty good. So he has had 2 top 5 seasons and one where he returned from a serious knee injury. This season he hasn't benn good but we are 2 games in with a rookie QB and poor oline play. I don't lose any sleep on those draft picks. Irv Smith hasn't done much since leaving and having him seems to have been worthwhile. Meanwhile look up what the Lions did with their draft picks for Hock.

Didn't they draft LaPorta that next draft ro the year after? Maybe it wasn't the Vikings draft pick but he was the replacement. Cheaper too. I loved Hocks production for sure a 2-3 years ago. I think he hasn't been top 5 since his injury. I'm not writing him off yet, just to be clear. However I'm not sure we really won that trade. I think the Lions ended up better because LaProtas on a rookie deal and Hocks on a big one.

[Monster]

Hock has been overall a slight disappointment considering what we traded AND paid him. He just has to be better. He's just been kind of meh (based on his pay) these last couple years. He's paid to be a top 5 TE. Go be one.

Idk if I agree with that. He came over and was fantastic for that partial season. Next season he has almost 1000 yards and over 90 catches which was top 5. Last year he was coming off an injury and had 62 targets but still ended up with 41 catches for 455 yards and no touchdowns. Last year was a slight disappointment because lack of TDs but the previous seasons he was pretty good. So he has had 2 top 5 seasons and one where he returned from a serious knee injury. This season he hasn't benn good but we are 2 games in with a rookie QB and poor oline play. I don't lose any sleep on those draft picks. Irv Smith hasn't done much since leaving and having him seems to have been worthwhile. Meanwhile look up what the Lions did with their draft picks for Hock.

Didn't they draft LaPorta that next draft ro the year after? Maybe it wasn't the Vikings draft pick but he was the replacement. Cheaper too. I loved Hocks production for sure a 2-3 years ago. I think he hasn't been top 5 since his injury. I'm not writing him off yet, just to be clear. However I'm not sure we really won that trade. I think the Lions ended up better because LaProtas on a rookie deal and Hocks on a big one.

FWIW The Lions picked higher than the Vikings and the Vikings would have had to either pick LaPorta in the first or use a lot of assets to move up. Lions did not use any of the picks to get LaPorta who the lions picked at #34. It turned out great that the Lions traded Hock and got a replacement player that was cheaper it wad the right thing for them to do but they haven't gotten much out of the draft assets in the deal.

It was brought up multiple times in the broadcast in the Bengals game that Hock had to stay in to block instead of going out on patterns the first couple weeks. I didn't think about that but it's likely a bit of the reason for fewer targets when he returned from injury last season. I know they felt better about Cam Robinson at LT than Skule but I would guess Hock did do a little more blocking when he returned than the previous season.

Edit: Lions traded Hock and 2023 4th and 2024 4th for 2023 2nd and 2024 3rd. Vikings traded down from the 3rd and picked Jay Ward and got a 2024 5th which they used to help move up to get the pick they used on Dallas Turner. The 2024 4th was used to trade up and get McCarthy.

Random thought...Nailor looks more legit at WR this year than last. He might be setting himself up for some sort of decent contract. His lack of staying healthy will keep it from going very high tho. Still even like 5 million would be nice for him to get.

[Wolvesfan21]

Idk if I agree with that. He came over and was fantastic for that partial season. Next season he has almost 1000 yards and over 90 catches which was top 5. Last year he was coming off an injury and had 62 targets but still ended up with 41 catches for 455 yards and no touchdowns. Last year was a slight disappointment because lack of TDs but the previous seasons he was pretty good. So he has had 2 top 5 seasons and one where he returned from a serious knee injury. This season he hasn't benn good but we are 2 games in with a rookie QB and poor oline play. I don't lose any sleep on those draft picks. Irv Smith hasn't done much since leaving and having him seems to have been worthwhile. Meanwhile look up what the Lions did with their draft picks for Hock.

Didn't they draft LaPorta that next draft ro the year after? Maybe it wasn't the Vikings draft pick but he was the replacement. Cheaper too. I loved Hocks production for sure a 2-3 years ago. I think he hasn't been top 5 since his injury. I'm not writing him off yet, just to be clear. However I'm not sure we really won that trade. I think the Lions ended up better because LaProtas on a rookie deal and Hocks on a big one.

FWIW The Lions picked higher than the Vikings and the Vikings would have had to either pick LaPorta in the first or use a lot of assets to move up. Lions did not use any of the picks to get LaPorta who the lions picked at #34. It turned out great that the Lions traded Hock and got a replacement player that was cheaper it wad the right thing for them to do but they haven't gotten much out of the draft assets in the deal.

It was brought up multiple times in the broadcast in the Bengals game that Hock had to stay in to block instead of going out on patterns the first couple weeks. I didn't think about that but it's likely a bit of the reason for fewer targets when he returned from injury last season. I know they felt better about Cam Robinson at LT than Skule but I would guess Hock did do a little more blocking when he returned than the previous season.

Edit: Lions traded Hock and 2023 4th and 2024 4th for 2023 2nd and 2024 3rd. Vikings traded down from the 3rd and picked Jay Ward and got a 2024 5th which they used to help move up to get the pick they used on Dallas Turner. The 2024 4th was used to trade up and get McCarthy.

Random thought...Nailor looks more legit at WR this year than last. He might be setting himself up for some sort of decent contract. His lack of staying healthy will keep it from going very high tho. Still even like 5 million would be nice for him to get.

They were chipping with Hock a bit for sure the first couple weeks. I was watching some all 22 film and saw it. Harder to pick up in real time. He was able to get running free last game for sure.

Yeah as far as if the exact pick wasn't used or not doesn't really matter. LaPorta is arguably better and cheaper. So the Lions ended up the winners.

You're right about Nailor, he's catching the ball. I don't think he's had a drop yet? IDK he's been solid, Theilen on the other hand has been dropping it. No bueno.

[Monster]

Didn't they draft LaPorta that next draft ro the year after? Maybe it wasn't the Vikings draft pick but he was the replacement. Cheaper too. I loved Hocks production for sure a 2-3 years ago. I think he hasn't been top 5 since his injury. I'm not writing him off yet, just to be clear. However I'm not sure we really won that trade. I think the Lions ended up better because LaProtas on a rookie deal and Hocks on a big one.

FWIW The Lions picked higher than the Vikings and the Vikings would have had to either pick LaPorta in the first or use a lot of assets to move up. Lions did not use any of the picks to get LaPorta who the lions picked at #34. It turned out great that the Lions traded Hock and got a replacement player that was cheaper it wad the right thing for them to do but they haven't gotten much out of the draft assets in the deal.

It was brought up multiple times in the broadcast in the Bengals game that Hock had to stay in to block instead of going out on patterns the first couple weeks. I didn't think about that but it's likely a bit of the reason for fewer targets when he returned from injury last season. I know they felt better about Cam Robinson at LT than Skule but I would guess Hock did do a little more blocking when he returned than the previous season.

Edit: Lions traded Hock and 2023 4th and 2024 4th for 2023 2nd and 2024 3rd. Vikings traded down from the 3rd and picked Jay Ward and got a 2024 5th which they used to help move up to get the pick they used on Dallas Turner. The 2024 4th was used to trade up and get McCarthy.

Random thought...Nailor looks more legit at WR this year than last. He might be setting himself up for some sort of decent contract. His lack of staying healthy will keep it from going very high tho. Still even like 5 million would be nice for him to get.

They were chipping with Hock a bit for sure the first couple weeks. I was watching some all 22 film and saw it. Harder to pick up in real time. He was able to get running free last game for sure.

Yeah as far as if the exact pick wasn't used or not doesn't really matter. LaPorta is arguably better and cheaper. So the Lions ended up the winners.

You're right about Nailor, he's catching the ball. I don't think he's had a drop yet? IDK he's been solid, Theilen on the other hand has been dropping it. No bueno.

Both teams are happy with their TEs so it worked out for both teams.

If the Lions got absolutely nothing for their picks for Hock did they really win the trade? This is getting imto the weeds but it's kinda fun. The Lions traded down with their pick in 2023 and picked Herndon Hooker and all the othrr guys they drafted in 2023 are no longer on the team. Jay Ward is at least a seemingly worthwhile depth player and is also good on STs. The Lions used the 2024 pick to move up in the first to select Terrion Arnold who it looks like is struggling. Idk how much credit or blame I would give a team for using a 4th or 5th or later round pick to end up moving up to or in the first round the like the Vikings did for McCarthy and Turner but using a 3 rounder to move up I feel like that is a valuable enough pick to expect something worthwhile from that player. The Lions are paying around 4 million including dead money of the 2023 draft picks they cut and Arnold who might not be a starting CB. The Vikings are paying Hock lots of money but he is actually good. Meanwhile they are paying Ward just 1.2 million to be a backup.

Again yes it worked out for the Lions as they traded a guy they didn't want to pay a lot of money for draft picks and then they were able to draft a replacement who has performed well at a cheaper price. On the other hand the Vikings got a good player who they had to pay but as much as I love getting cheaper players at times getting a good player and paying them needs to happen too. I think one thing that isn't mentioned about Hock is I think his blocking has been better than what I expected from him. I sense he isn't just a receiving TE that doesn't suck at blocking.

Meanwhile it doesn't seem to me the draft picks that the Vikings gave up really hurt their ability to add talent. The Lions not getting much from those picks hasn't ruined their team either. Both teams have had plenty of success and continue to do so in part because of their TEs. I would do that trade every single time and so would the Vikings. Of course so would the Lions they would just do something different with the picks.

Edit: Yeah Thielen needs to catch the ball that hasn't helped either. I'm pretty confident he will get the job done when called on. O'Connell said in a press conference this week they feel like they have 4 starters at that position. I'll also say that Tai Felton definitely has shown up on special teams. Hopefully he can develop into a worthwhile WR. It seems like something this coaching staff should be able to do develop a guy at WR that wasn't a 1st round pick. Nailor has been a moderate success but staying healthy likely kept him from progressing earlier but that was part of why he was drafted where he was. Also it looks lime we have a guy that is good at returning punts in Price.