Play me a tune Jazz @ Wolves GDT

[TheFuture]

After watching the game I began to think is this team much more fluid without Ant? I know he can be a complete game-changing player. But ... the defensive rotations and ball movement were purely enjoyable to see. The lobs from everybody to Gobert, the kickoffs from every teammate to open players. That is the step he has not taken. The playmaking to make his team better. I love the kid, but if we are honest. He is a very selfish player right now. Everybody was in sync in that game.

Play making is the hardest thing to learn once you get to the NBA, you either have it or you don't. Ant takes 20.5 shots per game, I wouldn't consider that unreasonable. When Jordan was 24 he took 27.8 shots per game. Ant takes 20.5 shots on 35.5 minutes so .577 shots per minute, SGA shoots 19.7 shots in 33.5 minutes so .588 shots per minute. Luka takes 22.4 shots per game on 35.8 minutes per game so .626 shots per minute. I don't think Ant is selfish in shot attempts per game. When you remove someone that takes 20 shots per game, there is going to be more shots to go around. After taking 27.8 shots per game at 24, Jordan dropped his shots per game to get his teammates a bit more involved and dropped it down to 24.4 shots per game the next season. I trust Ant to keep learning from losses, and adapting his game as he goes. Hopefully this is a point emphasis this summer for him.

I edited just prior to you responding.

Ant is not Jordan. Jordan did hunt his own shots, but he brought it every night on both ends. Fuck Luka, he doesn't play any defense. I don't think he will ever win. Except he is in LA, so you never know what they will get gifted. SGA does shoot plenty, defends rather well, and he also playmakes, and that is why they won.

You are right with playmaking. You have it or you don't. It is obvious Ant does not have it, likely never will, and will remain a selfish teammate.

[FNG]

After watching the game I began to think is this team much more fluid without Ant? I know he can be a complete game-changing player. But ... the defensive rotations and ball movement were purely enjoyable to see. The lobs from everybody to Gobert, the kickoffs from every teammate to open players. That is the step he has not taken. The playmaking to make his team better. I love the kid, but if we are honest. He is a very selfish player right now. Everybody was in sync in that game.

Play making is the hardest thing to learn once you get to the NBA, you either have it or you don't. Ant takes 20.5 shots per game, I wouldn't consider that unreasonable. When Jordan was 24 he took 27.8 shots per game. Ant takes 20.5 shots on 35.5 minutes so .577 shots per minute, SGA shoots 19.7 shots in 33.5 minutes so .588 shots per minute. Luka takes 22.4 shots per game on 35.8 minutes per game so .626 shots per minute. I don't think Ant is selfish in shot attempts per game. When you remove someone that takes 20 shots per game, there is going to be more shots to go around. After taking 27.8 shots per game at 24, Jordan dropped his shots per game to get his teammates a bit more involved and dropped it down to 24.4 shots per game the next season. I trust Ant to keep learning from losses, and adapting his game as he goes. Hopefully this is a point emphasis this summer for him.

I edited just prior to you responding.

Ant is not Jordan. Jordan did hunt his own shots, but he brought it every night on both ends. Fuck Luka, he doesn't play any defense. I don't think he will ever win. Except he is in LA, so you never know what they will get gifted. SGA does shoot plenty, defends rather well, and he also playmakes, and that is why they won.

You are right with playmaking. You have it or you don't. It is obvious Ant does not have it, likely never will, and will remain a selfish teammate.

Future, it's only been two games without Ant so a very small sample size, but we have been clearly more fluid without him...at both ends of the court. We talk a lot about Ju not being a good fit for this team, but he actually does like to get out and run the court with the kids...we definitely saw it last night. Ant is always our best option in the half court by far, especially when Rudy is out there screening for him. But he's not really a good fit with a roster that has a bunch of guys who love to get out and run. I have to believe that TC is going to be watching this team closely the next several games to see how the young guns function without Ant slowing things down.

[AussieWolf3]

I'm getting a little frustrated with the chatter about pace
Let's do a little digging before throwing stuff around.

Here are the 10 fastest teams:
Miami
Atlanta
Utah
Chicago
Dallas
Washington
Portland
Indiana
Memphis
New Orleans

Not exactly a murderers row of contenders. Wanna guess the 11th fastest team? Minnesota.

Last year Ant was near the bottom in pace on the team- although still ahead of Jmac and Randle - at 98 poss per 48 minutes. This year that has jumped up to 101.4. Which, to be fair, is lowest on the team. However! All of the starters are between him and Naz at 102.5. Bones and Ayo are just running way ahead of everybody.
I want Ant to play faster because I think he would be amazing in transition -he is amazing in transition- and it's really strange to me that the message doesn't sink in for him. That said, he clearly can learn to play faster, given then 2.4 jump from last season.

Regarding his playmaking, no he'll never read the floor like Joker, Luka, or Harden, but everytime I look at assist rate or asst/100 progression over player careers there is always an increase, so it's clearly a learned skill.
I was curious about Ant progression in particular and compared his asst/100 with similar players; Mitchell, Tatum, and Leonard

Edwards actually started higher than all but Mitchell. Regardless all have an upward trend except for Mitchell dipping after moving to Cleveland, rising a little and had since flattened out. Leonard rose steadily until dipping steadily starting in the 22' season. Tatum started 2nd lowest and had steadily risen and is now the highest of all four and a legit good playmaker.

Ant, as we all should know, has had a steady rise as a playmaker until seeing his assist per 100 take a sharp decline in exact correlation with Julius joining the team. Literally, I compared the two as well and their trends literally invert starting at the 24' season.

Over the last two seasons plus post season, Ant averages 1 extra assist per 100 possession without Randle.

Ant's decline as a playmaker is by design. I don't understand that design, but it's clearly intentional. Over that time however his points created have increased, his impact on the team's shooting has increased, and his overall offensive impact has increased.

I just wish we could say the same about his defense

[rapsuperstar31]

I'm getting a little frustrated with the chatter about pace
Let's do a little digging before throwing stuff around.

Here are the 10 fastest teams:
Miami
Atlanta
Utah
Chicago
Dallas
Washington
Portland
Indiana
Memphis
New Orleans

Not exactly a murderers row of contenders. Wanna guess the 11th fastest team? Minnesota.

Last year Ant was near the bottom in pace on the team- although still ahead of Jmac and Randle - at 98 poss per 48 minutes. This year that has jumped up to 101.4. Which, to be fair, is lowest on the team. However! All of the starters are between him and Naz at 102.5. Bones and Ayo are just running way ahead of everybody.
I want Ant to play faster because I think he would be amazing in transition -he is amazing in transition- and it's really strange to me that the message doesn't sink in for him. That said, he clearly can learn to play faster, given then 2.4 jump from last season.

Regarding his playmaking, no he'll never read the floor like Joker, Luka, or Harden, but everytime I look at assist rate or asst/100 progression over player careers there is always an increase, so it's clearly a learned skill.
I was curious about Ant progression in particular and compared his asst/100 with similar players; Mitchell, Tatum, and Leonard

Edwards actually started higher than all but Mitchell. Regardless all have an upward trend except for Mitchell dipping after moving to Cleveland, rising a little and had since flattened out. Leonard rose steadily until dipping steadily starting in the 22' season. Tatum started 2nd lowest and had steadily risen and is now the highest of all four and a legit good playmaker.

Ant, as we all should know, has had a steady rise as a playmaker until seeing his assist per 100 take a sharp decline in exact correlation with Julius joining the team. Literally, I compared the two as well and their trends literally invert starting at the 24' season.

Over the last two seasons plus post season, Ant averages 1 extra assist per 100 possession without Randle.

Ant's decline as a playmaker is by design. I don't understand that design, but it's clearly intentional. Over that time however his points created have increased, his impact on the team's shooting has increased, and his overall offensive impact has increased.

I just wish we could say the same about his defense

What do all of those teams have in common that run? They are always hurt.

[rapsuperstar31]

After watching the game I began to think is this team much more fluid without Ant? I know he can be a complete game-changing player. But ... the defensive rotations and ball movement were purely enjoyable to see. The lobs from everybody to Gobert, the kickoffs from every teammate to open players. That is the step he has not taken. The playmaking to make his team better. I love the kid, but if we are honest. He is a very selfish player right now. Everybody was in sync in that game.

Play making is the hardest thing to learn once you get to the NBA, you either have it or you don't. Ant takes 20.5 shots per game, I wouldn't consider that unreasonable. When Jordan was 24 he took 27.8 shots per game. Ant takes 20.5 shots on 35.5 minutes so .577 shots per minute, SGA shoots 19.7 shots in 33.5 minutes so .588 shots per minute. Luka takes 22.4 shots per game on 35.8 minutes per game so .626 shots per minute. I don't think Ant is selfish in shot attempts per game. When you remove someone that takes 20 shots per game, there is going to be more shots to go around. After taking 27.8 shots per game at 24, Jordan dropped his shots per game to get his teammates a bit more involved and dropped it down to 24.4 shots per game the next season. I trust Ant to keep learning from losses, and adapting his game as he goes. Hopefully this is a point emphasis this summer for him.

I edited just prior to you responding.

Ant is not Jordan. Jordan did hunt his own shots, but he brought it every night on both ends. Fuck Luka, he doesn't play any defense. I don't think he will ever win. Except he is in LA, so you never know what they will get gifted. SGA does shoot plenty, defends rather well, and he also playmakes, and that is why they won.

You are right with playmaking. You have it or you don't. It is obvious Ant does not have it, likely never will, and will remain a selfish teammate.

It's not selfish if you can't. Fine lets look at other players, Maxey 21.9 shots per game, Jaylen Brown 21.6 shots per game, Mitchell 20.3 shots per game, Brunson 20 shots per game, Leonard 19.5 shots per game. Ant isn't selfish, he shoots a pretty appropriate amount of shots.

[Coolbreeze44]

When Ant is on the floor our ball movement decreases. When Ant and Randle play together it's a slow symphony of plodding iso basketball. I have no idea why anyone would want to play at the same time as those 2. Truthfully, no one probably does. I wrote a post last week about the impact Ant has on winning basketball games. It's not that high, certainly not as high as most think.

Okay, this won't be popular. But we find ourself in the same position we were in with KAT when it became clear to me he wasn't going to lead us to a title. I campaigned to trade him 3-4 years before we finally did, losing a great deal of his trade value. Right now Ant could bring back a haul of historic proportions. But we will surely keep him and in 4 years we will have no championships and a diminished asset. I wish one team in Minnesota had a leader who could think outside the box and make a move like I'm suggesting.

[rapsuperstar31]

When Ant is on the floor our ball movement decreases. When Ant and Randle play together it's a slow symphony of plodding iso basketball. I have no idea why anyone would want to play at the same time as those 2. Truthfully, no one probably does. I wrote a post last week about the impact Ant has on winning basketball games. It's not that high, certainly not as high as most think.

Okay, this won't be popular. But we find ourself in the same position we were in with KAT when it became clear to me he wasn't going to lead us to a title. I campaigned to trade him 3-4 years before we finally did, losing a great deal of his trade value. Right now Ant could bring back a haul of historic proportions. But we will surely keep him and in 4 years we will have no championships and a diminished asset. I wish one team in Minnesota had a leader who could think outside the box and make a move like I'm suggesting.

We sucked in games Ant missed prior to this season, we're 1-3 against teams above .500 this year with Ant out including losing to the Lakers who were missing Luka, Lebron and Smart, and we beat Phoenix missing it's best player in Brooks as well as Allen who often kills us. The difference between Ant and Kat from 3-4 years ago, Kat had 0 playoff success prior to playing with Ant. Rudy and Mike never got out of the 2nd round of the playoffs until they played with Ant. Randle had 0 playoff success until he played with Ant. Mitchell who was Rudy/Mike's sidekick still hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round of the playoffs with or without Rudy/Mike on great teams. Ant is a legend killer, crossing out Durant/Booker, Joker/Murray, Luka/Lebron, Green/Butler. Regular season Ant does need a change in mentality one of these years as he matures. If you think anyone in Wolves history could do some of the things Ant does, you haven't watched Timberwolves basketball throughout it's history. Lebron one of the top 3 goats, didn't win a championship until he formed a superteam with Bosh and Wade. Hall of fame KG didn't win a title until he teamed up with a super team with Allen and Pierce. Maybe Ant doesn't win his first title until we trade him to another team, but he is a champion type player/USA Golden Medal winner, All Star MVP (most of which have made the hall of fame and have won titles, and someone everyone is begging to be the face of the league. I can guarantee you this, once we do trade Ant, our chances of winning a championship is at least 15 years away once Wemby retires.

[AbeVigodaLive]

When Ant is on the floor our ball movement decreases. When Ant and Randle play together it's a slow symphony of plodding iso basketball. I have no idea why anyone would want to play at the same time as those 2. Truthfully, no one probably does. I wrote a post last week about the impact Ant has on winning basketball games. It's not that high, certainly not as high as most think.

Okay, this won't be popular. But we find ourself in the same position we were in with KAT when it became clear to me he wasn't going to lead us to a title. I campaigned to trade him 3-4 years before we finally did, losing a great deal of his trade value. Right now Ant could bring back a haul of historic proportions. But we will surely keep him and in 4 years we will have no championships and a diminished asset. I wish one team in Minnesota had a leader who could think outside the box and make a move like I'm suggesting.

We sucked in games Ant missed prior to this season, we're 1-3 against teams above .500 this year with Ant out including losing to the Lakers who were missing Luka, Lebron and Smart, and we beat Phoenix missing it's best player in Brooks as well as Allen who often kills us. The difference between Ant and Kat from 3-4 years ago, Kat had 0 playoff success prior to playing with Ant. Rudy and Mike never got out of the 2nd round of the playoffs until they played with Ant. Randle had 0 playoff success until he played with Ant. Mitchell who was Rudy/Mike's sidekick still hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round of the playoffs with or without Rudy/Mike on great teams. Ant is a legend killer, crossing out Durant/Booker, Joker/Murray, Luka/Lebron, Green/Butler. Regular season Ant does need a change in mentality one of these years as he matures. If you think anyone in Wolves history could do some of the things Ant does, you haven't watched Timberwolves basketball throughout it's history. Lebron one of the top 3 goats, didn't win a championship until he formed a superteam with Bosh and Wade. Hall of fame KG didn't win a title until he teamed up with a super team with Allen and Pierce. Maybe Ant doesn't win his first title until we trade him to another team, but he is a champion type player/USA Golden Medal winner, All Star MVP (most of which have made the hall of fame and have won titles, and someone everyone is begging to be the face of the league. I can guarantee you this, once we do trade Ant, our chances of winning a championship is at least 15 years away once Wemby retires.

While I agree that Edwards >>>> Towns, I'll give Cool the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't making that direct comparison. Obviously, Edwards is the superior player in nearly every way, including being the centerpiece for a good team.

That being said, it's not exactly going out on a limb to suggest that a team isn't going to win a title. As EVERY Minnesota sports fan knows, the odds are very very long.

The Wolves probably won't win a title in the Anthony Edwards era. But I don't think Anthony Edwards will be the primary reason why it won't happen. Similarly, I don't think Kevin Garnett was the primary reason the Wolves didn't get out of the 1st round more than once in his tenure here. Conversely, Edwards has already shown that by the age of 23, he was a primary reason the Wolves made it to the WCF. And considering that the guy has improved some element in his game EVERY season so far, I'm willing to see what plays out next before jettisoning him for lesser players and more Promise of Hope campaigns.

[rapsuperstar31]

When Ant is on the floor our ball movement decreases. When Ant and Randle play together it's a slow symphony of plodding iso basketball. I have no idea why anyone would want to play at the same time as those 2. Truthfully, no one probably does. I wrote a post last week about the impact Ant has on winning basketball games. It's not that high, certainly not as high as most think.

Okay, this won't be popular. But we find ourself in the same position we were in with KAT when it became clear to me he wasn't going to lead us to a title. I campaigned to trade him 3-4 years before we finally did, losing a great deal of his trade value. Right now Ant could bring back a haul of historic proportions. But we will surely keep him and in 4 years we will have no championships and a diminished asset. I wish one team in Minnesota had a leader who could think outside the box and make a move like I'm suggesting.

We sucked in games Ant missed prior to this season, we're 1-3 against teams above .500 this year with Ant out including losing to the Lakers who were missing Luka, Lebron and Smart, and we beat Phoenix missing it's best player in Brooks as well as Allen who often kills us. The difference between Ant and Kat from 3-4 years ago, Kat had 0 playoff success prior to playing with Ant. Rudy and Mike never got out of the 2nd round of the playoffs until they played with Ant. Randle had 0 playoff success until he played with Ant. Mitchell who was Rudy/Mike's sidekick still hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round of the playoffs with or without Rudy/Mike on great teams. Ant is a legend killer, crossing out Durant/Booker, Joker/Murray, Luka/Lebron, Green/Butler. Regular season Ant does need a change in mentality one of these years as he matures. If you think anyone in Wolves history could do some of the things Ant does, you haven't watched Timberwolves basketball throughout it's history. Lebron one of the top 3 goats, didn't win a championship until he formed a superteam with Bosh and Wade. Hall of fame KG didn't win a title until he teamed up with a super team with Allen and Pierce. Maybe Ant doesn't win his first title until we trade him to another team, but he is a champion type player/USA Golden Medal winner, All Star MVP (most of which have made the hall of fame and have won titles, and someone everyone is begging to be the face of the league. I can guarantee you this, once we do trade Ant, our chances of winning a championship is at least 15 years away once Wemby retires.

While I agree that Edwards >>>> Towns, I'll give Cool the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't making that direct comparison. Obviously, Edwards is the superior player in nearly every way, including being the centerpiece for a good team.

That being said, it's not exactly going out on a limb to suggest that a team isn't going to win a title. As EVERY Minnesota sports fan knows, the odds are very very long.

The Wolves probably won't win a title in the Anthony Edwards era. But I don't think Anthony Edwards will be the primary reason why it won't happen. Similarly, I don't think Kevin Garnett was the primary reason the Wolves didn't get out of the 1st round more than once in his tenure here. Conversely, Edwards has already shown that by the age of 23, he was a primary reason the Wolves made it to the WCF. And considering that the guy has improved some element in his game EVERY season so far, I'm willing to see what plays out next before jettisoning him for lesser players and more Promise of Hope campaigns.

I can agree with that the chances of the Wolves a smaller NBA market winning a championship aren't great with Ant, but it's a hell of a lot less the day we do trade him. Most of us on this board are 40,50, 60+ years old at this point, we were mostly lucky to at least see the Twins win a championship, but we don't have too many eras of TWolves basketball left in us. If we trade Ant and have to wait another decade or two for the Wolves to be relevant again that is going to be tough. There is a reason Embiid, Giannis, Dame and other stars keeps naming Ant their favorite player in the league. I think there is a strong chance we one day grab that star counterpart to put next to Ant one of these years, Giannis or someone else.

[Coolbreeze44]

When Ant is on the floor our ball movement decreases. When Ant and Randle play together it's a slow symphony of plodding iso basketball. I have no idea why anyone would want to play at the same time as those 2. Truthfully, no one probably does. I wrote a post last week about the impact Ant has on winning basketball games. It's not that high, certainly not as high as most think.

Okay, this won't be popular. But we find ourself in the same position we were in with KAT when it became clear to me he wasn't going to lead us to a title. I campaigned to trade him 3-4 years before we finally did, losing a great deal of his trade value. Right now Ant could bring back a haul of historic proportions. But we will surely keep him and in 4 years we will have no championships and a diminished asset. I wish one team in Minnesota had a leader who could think outside the box and make a move like I'm suggesting.

We sucked in games Ant missed prior to this season, we're 1-3 against teams above .500 this year with Ant out including losing to the Lakers who were missing Luka, Lebron and Smart, and we beat Phoenix missing it's best player in Brooks as well as Allen who often kills us. The difference between Ant and Kat from 3-4 years ago, Kat had 0 playoff success prior to playing with Ant. Rudy and Mike never got out of the 2nd round of the playoffs until they played with Ant. Randle had 0 playoff success until he played with Ant. Mitchell who was Rudy/Mike's sidekick still hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round of the playoffs with or without Rudy/Mike on great teams. Ant is a legend killer, crossing out Durant/Booker, Joker/Murray, Luka/Lebron, Green/Butler. Regular season Ant does need a change in mentality one of these years as he matures. If you think anyone in Wolves history could do some of the things Ant does, you haven't watched Timberwolves basketball throughout it's history. Lebron one of the top 3 goats, didn't win a championship until he formed a superteam with Bosh and Wade. Hall of fame KG didn't win a title until he teamed up with a super team with Allen and Pierce. Maybe Ant doesn't win his first title until we trade him to another team, but he is a champion type player/USA Golden Medal winner, All Star MVP (most of which have made the hall of fame and have won titles, and someone everyone is begging to be the face of the league. I can guarantee you this, once we do trade Ant, our chances of winning a championship is at least 15 years away once Wemby retires.

While I agree that Edwards >>>> Towns, I'll give Cool the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't making that direct comparison. Obviously, Edwards is the superior player in nearly every way, including being the centerpiece for a good team.

That being said, it's not exactly going out on a limb to suggest that a team isn't going to win a title. As EVERY Minnesota sports fan knows, the odds are very very long.

The Wolves probably won't win a title in the Anthony Edwards era. But I don't think Anthony Edwards will be the primary reason why it won't happen. Similarly, I don't think Kevin Garnett was the primary reason the Wolves didn't get out of the 1st round more than once in his tenure here. Conversely, Edwards has already shown that by the age of 23, he was a primary reason the Wolves made it to the WCF. And considering that the guy has improved some element in his game EVERY season so far, I'm willing to see what plays out next before jettisoning him for lesser players and more Promise of Hope campaigns.

Yes, Ant is better than KAT and is the best player we've ever had IMO. But his perceived value around the league is much higher than reality. He has the tools to be that guy, but his flaws will keep him from reaching his ceiling. He's an incredible shot maker, but his taking plays off on defense counter balance that. He's truly competitive, but that competitive drive is mostly focused on himself and not the opponent. He plays great most of the time, but he doesn't lift his teammates to a higher level. He's starting to pick up injuries and he doesn't even work that hard on defense. IMO we could get a haul of assets that would exceed his overall value to us if we acted in the near future. But I know that won't happen and Ant will continue to thrill but ultimately disappoint in the mold of Dominique Wilkins.