Stake your claim

[Phenom]

If the Wolves get through the gauntlet headlined by Jokic, Wemby, and Shai, where does Ant ascend to in the hierarchy?

[Mnwild1128]

In that scenario, it assumes getting past Jokic, Shai and Wemby but no stated championship. So the order would be as follows.....

1. Jokic
2. Shai
3. Giannis
4. Ant
5. Wemby
6. Luka

[Coolbreeze44]

In that scenario, it assumes getting past Jokic, Shai and Wemby but no stated championship. So the order would be as follows.....

1. Jokic
2. Shai
3. Giannis
4. Ant
5. Wemby
6. Luka

That would be pretty accurate.

[D-Loser25]

Ummm if he somehow gets through that and also wins in the finals, I’d say that puts at him #1 for best current player. Is that what’s being asked here? I mean if you get through that without any home court, you move to #1 in my book. It’s not likely to happen, but yeah

[FNG]

Sure, if they run that gauntlet, everyone on the Wolves' profile will rise. But who knows who the catalyst of this unlikely run would be? Maybe Rudy dominates in all three series and he comes out of it with the reputation of a top 10 impactful player. I mean, Ant's regular season winning percentage prior to Rudy was 44.8%...in the 4 years since Rudy joined the Wolves, Ant's winning percentage is 59.8%! Ant is the undisputed offensive leader of this team, but there are two sides of the ball, and Ant's indifference on defense (along with Ju) to me is the main reason for my frustration as we fell short of expectations this season. Until Ant shows me he can at least be average on defense and be a true 2-way player, I still have a problem including him in my overall top 10. For instance, do you think anyone other than a Wolves fan would rank Ant ahead of Wemby? Wemby almost doubled up Ant this season in almost all deep analytical 2-way stats (ws/48, BPM, VORP, on/off, etc). Ant is going to have to be a completely different than the player I watched this season for him to crack my top 10. I think he has it in him...really hope he can do it.

[AussieWolf3]

Sure, if they run that gauntlet, everyone on the Wolves' profile will rise. But who knows who the catalyst of this unlikely run would be? Maybe Rudy dominates in all three series and he comes out of it with the reputation of a top 10 impactful player. I mean, Ant's regular season winning percentage prior to Rudy was 44.8%...in the 4 years since Rudy joined the Wolves, Ant's winning percentage is 59.8%! Ant is the undisputed offensive leader of this team, but there are two sides of the ball, and Ant's indifference on defense (along with Ju) to me is the main reason for my frustration as we fell short of expectations this season. Until Ant shows me he can at least be average on defense and be a true 2-way player, I still have a problem including him in my overall top 10. For instance, do you think anyone other than a Wolves fan would rank Ant ahead of Wemby? Wemby almost doubled up Ant this season in almost all deep analytical 2-way stats (ws/48, BPM, VORP, on/off, etc). Ant is going to have to be a completely different than the player I watched this season for him to crack my top 10. I think he has it in him...really hope he can do it.

Ant being ranked behind Wemby and him being a top 10 player are not mutually exclusive.

I.e. most reputable analyst, stat metrics, and website have Ant ranked somewhere between 6th and 8th. It's not a homer take to regard him this highly, it's the consensus

[Wolvesfan21]

Sure, if they run that gauntlet, everyone on the Wolves' profile will rise. But who knows who the catalyst of this unlikely run would be? Maybe Rudy dominates in all three series and he comes out of it with the reputation of a top 10 impactful player. I mean, Ant's regular season winning percentage prior to Rudy was 44.8%...in the 4 years since Rudy joined the Wolves, Ant's winning percentage is 59.8%! Ant is the undisputed offensive leader of this team, but there are two sides of the ball, and Ant's indifference on defense (along with Ju) to me is the main reason for my frustration as we fell short of expectations this season. Until Ant shows me he can at least be average on defense and be a true 2-way player, I still have a problem including him in my overall top 10. For instance, do you think anyone other than a Wolves fan would rank Ant ahead of Wemby? Wemby almost doubled up Ant this season in almost all deep analytical 2-way stats (ws/48, BPM, VORP, on/off, etc). Ant is going to have to be a completely different than the player I watched this season for him to crack my top 10. I think he has it in him...really hope he can do it.

While Ant has improved during that span you are for sure correct. Rudy has been our regular season MVP while Ant I give the playoff MVP edge to. Only reason Ant can slack for much of the season on defense is because of Rudy. Without Rudy Ant has to become a more consistently good defender to pick up that slack other wise we are probably some type of play-in team.

Regular season Ant has been nearing that Zach Lavine category a bit to close IMO! Now the difference is Ant can play great defense, Zach I don't think can or ever could.

[FNG]

Sure, if they run that gauntlet, everyone on the Wolves' profile will rise. But who knows who the catalyst of this unlikely run would be? Maybe Rudy dominates in all three series and he comes out of it with the reputation of a top 10 impactful player. I mean, Ant's regular season winning percentage prior to Rudy was 44.8%...in the 4 years since Rudy joined the Wolves, Ant's winning percentage is 59.8%! Ant is the undisputed offensive leader of this team, but there are two sides of the ball, and Ant's indifference on defense (along with Ju) to me is the main reason for my frustration as we fell short of expectations this season. Until Ant shows me he can at least be average on defense and be a true 2-way player, I still have a problem including him in my overall top 10. For instance, do you think anyone other than a Wolves fan would rank Ant ahead of Wemby? Wemby almost doubled up Ant this season in almost all deep analytical 2-way stats (ws/48, BPM, VORP, on/off, etc). Ant is going to have to be a completely different than the player I watched this season for him to crack my top 10. I think he has it in him...really hope he can do it.

Ant being ranked behind Wemby and him being a top 10 player are not mutually exclusive.

I.e. most reputable analyst, stat metrics, and website have Ant ranked somewhere between 6th and 8th. It's not a homer take to regard him this highly, it's the consensus

It depends on what you're looking at, Aussie, but I agree with you that most reputable analysts would have Ant in the top 10. I fully admit I'm am outlier here, but it's because I value defense more than offense. When asked to rank a player, I would say most analysts value someone based on something like 85% offense and 15% defense. Smart analysts too...it's just easier to measure offense. I listen to almost every post-game pod Jack Borman is on because he is brilliant in how he evaluates offensive performance...but he hardly talks about defense at all. I probably evaluate a player more based on 60% defense and 40% offense...I just get more of a kick out of watching a terrific defensive performance than an offensive one, and I value consistent effort more than potential. That's just me.

We all know defensive stats are difficult to measure, so I tend to gravitate toward deep analytical stats that at least try to evaluate overall value rather than just offense...VORP, ws/48, BPM, on/off, etc. And in every one of these measures the same names keep popping up as leaders, and they are the ones who end up in my top 10. We all know Ant ranks far behind almost all other superstars in on/off, but since that is a much maligned measure here, we'll put that aside. But unfortunately Ant ranks outside the top 10 in the other measurements I favor too...VORP (15th), WS/48 (38th) BPM (12th). And just to demonstrate the validity of these three measures...here are the players who show up in the top 10 in each of them: Jokic, SGA, Luka, Kawhi, Wemby. And other players I consider top 10 show up in at least 2 of these measures. I don't think anyone here would dispute these five guys as being true top 10 players, so the fact that Ant ranks so far behind them is why he doesn't crack my top 10. Top 10 offensive player for sure, but not overall.

Now, we have seen Ant flip the switch in the playoffs, and as a long-time Wolves fan, I'll be pulling for him to do it again. And maybe he will measure up better against Jokic, SGA and Wemby in overall stats in the playoffs...I hope so. And some may say the best way to measure a player is by his playoff performance. I say BS...I'm a basketball junkie, and I want to see maximum performance at both ends of the court from my team's star the entire season.

I suspect there are some analytical stats that purportedly measure overall value where Ant cracks the top 10, and since he's our guy, I'd love to see them. But I think for every overall measure that has him in the top 10, I can find 2 that have him outside.

[AussieWolf3]

I should say, I'm not really sure where I would place Ant in the so called top 10. Such debates are fun but often overly arbitrary.
I was just pointing out, albeit pedantically, that it's not a homer take to rank Ant inside the top 10--- it's just general consensus.

All that said, I don't really disagree with anything your have to say FNG. Ant doesn't measure up super well in the stats you've laid out and that frustrating even if those stats are flawed. You are also correct that Ant grades out pretty well in most hyper analytical metrics like DMP, in which he is 6th. I'm hoping to do a "player review" series this off season and I'll be able to touch more on the numbers.

But for what it's worth, I think it's pretty valid to drop Ant a few or several spots because of the inconsistent effort. He's one of the most simultaneously entertaining and frustrating superstars I've ever watched, and I hate the whole "flip a switch" idea. At best it's misguided, at worst it's a loser mindset and in any case it's extremely arrogant.

If Ant want to stake his reputation on what he does in the playoffs, than he better bring it in 2026, cause in all honesty he's let his team down this year

[Wolvesfan21]

Sure, if they run that gauntlet, everyone on the Wolves' profile will rise. But who knows who the catalyst of this unlikely run would be? Maybe Rudy dominates in all three series and he comes out of it with the reputation of a top 10 impactful player. I mean, Ant's regular season winning percentage prior to Rudy was 44.8%...in the 4 years since Rudy joined the Wolves, Ant's winning percentage is 59.8%! Ant is the undisputed offensive leader of this team, but there are two sides of the ball, and Ant's indifference on defense (along with Ju) to me is the main reason for my frustration as we fell short of expectations this season. Until Ant shows me he can at least be average on defense and be a true 2-way player, I still have a problem including him in my overall top 10. For instance, do you think anyone other than a Wolves fan would rank Ant ahead of Wemby? Wemby almost doubled up Ant this season in almost all deep analytical 2-way stats (ws/48, BPM, VORP, on/off, etc). Ant is going to have to be a completely different than the player I watched this season for him to crack my top 10. I think he has it in him...really hope he can do it.

Ant being ranked behind Wemby and him being a top 10 player are not mutually exclusive.

I.e. most reputable analyst, stat metrics, and website have Ant ranked somewhere between 6th and 8th. It's not a homer take to regard him this highly, it's the consensus

It depends on what you're looking at, Aussie, but I agree with you that most reputable analysts would have Ant in the top 10. I fully admit I'm am outlier here, but it's because I value defense more than offense. When asked to rank a player, I would say most analysts value someone based on something like 85% offense and 15% defense. Smart analysts too...it's just easier to measure offense. I listen to almost every post-game pod Jack Borman is on because he is brilliant in how he evaluates offensive performance...but he hardly talks about defense at all. I probably evaluate a player more based on 60% defense and 40% offense...I just get more of a kick out of watching a terrific defensive performance than an offensive one, and I value consistent effort more than potential. That's just me.

We all know defensive stats are difficult to measure, so I tend to gravitate toward deep analytical stats that at least try to evaluate overall value rather than just offense...VORP, ws/48, BPM, on/off, etc. And in every one of these measures the same names keep popping up as leaders, and they are the ones who end up in my top 10. We all know Ant ranks far behind almost all other superstars in on/off, but since that is a much maligned measure here, we'll put that aside. But unfortunately Ant ranks outside the top 10 in the other measurements I favor too...VORP (15th), WS/48 (38th) BPM (12th). And just to demonstrate the validity of these three measures...here are the players who show up in the top 10 in each of them: Jokic, SGA, Luka, Kawhi, Wemby. And other players I consider top 10 show up in at least 2 of these measures. I don't think anyone here would dispute these five guys as being true top 10 players, so the fact that Ant ranks so far behind them is why he doesn't crack my top 10. Top 10 offensive player for sure, but not overall.

Now, we have seen Ant flip the switch in the playoffs, and as a long-time Wolves fan, I'll be pulling for him to do it again. And maybe he will measure up better against Jokic, SGA and Wemby in overall stats in the playoffs...I hope so. And some may say the best way to measure a player is by his playoff performance. I say BS...I'm a basketball junkie, and I want to see maximum performance at both ends of the court from my team's star the entire season.

I suspect there are some analytical stats that purportedly measure overall value where Ant cracks the top 10, and since he's our guy, I'd love to see them. But I think for every overall measure that has him in the top 10, I can find 2 that have him outside.

I respect that you care about the regular season. I suspect season ticket holders are the same way. I personally care little about regular season other then how does it effect us in winning a chip. Typically regular season performance does lend itself to predicting the ultimate winner as well. Nearly all the time the champ is a top seed, if not at least top 2-3. It's rare in basketball to have a lower seed come through, so I do question our lackluster last two regular seasons.

Even making the WCF would seem like a success right NOW, but thats not the ultimate goal here. We are not playing up to our potential and I think we fail badly. But that might not be a bad thing long term if proper changes are made.