Wolves offseason outlook.

[AbeVigodaLive]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

[Coolbreeze44]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

[FNG]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

This is where I am too. I love Ant...he's an engaging, charismatic player who has a chance of putting up 40 on any given night. And watching him when he goes off on one of his hot streaks during a game is riveting. I also love how he supports and praises his teammates in his postgamers. But as I've demonstrated several times, his deep stats just don't measure up to the top 10 or so players in the Association. He's always going to measure very well in PPG and PER, and frankly those are the stats that put butts in the seats...we love guys who can score. But he doesn't sniff the top 10 in various stats that measure total impact...VORP, ws/48, on/off, etc. The best comp I can come up with for Ant is Jaylen Brown, another player that I really like to watch, but who looks really bad in on/off stats...this was the 4th consecutive season that the Celtics have been better when he is off the floor than when he is on! Ant is not quite as bad as Brown in this stat, but he has ranked at or near the bottom of all our rotation players in each of the past two years. It's baffling to me that these two dynamic players show up so poorly in the deep stats, but the Celtics have an advantage we don't have...they have a 1A and 1B because they have Tatum, and we don't.

So as we approach an interesting offseason, I think Ant's deep stats reflect a ceiling for our beloved Wolves. In 2027-8 Ant will be making $55 million, a sizable chunk of our cap that season. We can still put together a nice roster full of good role players, but we would have to be quite lucky to get a true 1B with 1A absorbing so much of our payroll. And that is why it is imperative that Ant starts showing up in the deep stats like a true top 10 player does. He ranked 15th in VORP this season, 12th in BPM, and a disastrous 38th in ws/48! And the list of players ahead of him are mostly guys that we would all say "yep, he's really good". I'm not giving up on Ant, not at all...I still think he has the potential to become a more complete offensive player and an adequate defender. But until he does, TC can do all the rearranging of the roster he wants...but Ant's limitations will continue to create a ceiling for this team lower than I would like.

I recognize Cool and I (and maybe a couple others) are outliers here, and the majority either dismiss Ant's deep stats or think he can lead this team to a championship playing the way he is now. I'd like to be convinced...

[guest81]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

Is he a long way from MJ, the GOAT? Yea duh. Is he still more accomplished then most 24 year olds in NBA history? Yes he is. Your the one who claimed that Harper and Castle were pretty much as good as Ant and didn't back it up. Sounds like hating to me

[60WinTim]

I know a minority of you are on board with trading ANT for a decent package. But I am with the majority that say you're nuts!

I take the opTIMistic view of ANT's trajectory thus far. I would argue his advanced stats have been on an upward swing the majority of his career, although some of those stats have stalled over the last two years. It would be negligent of me to not point out those two years coincided with the acquisition of Randle (I know, I'm piling on). Further, this past year has two additional factors contributing to the stall: the "Lead Guard" experiment and the "runners knee" that had him missing a quarter of the season (a killer for VORP!).

TC, Finch and players have all inferred the "Lead Guard" experiment was not very successful. And hopefully the "runners knee" issue is addressed this offseason. The Randle conundrum should go away this offseason as well. I for one am really pumped with what ANT and the Wolves will look like this next season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

[FNG]

I know a minority of you are on board with trading ANT for a decent package. But I am with the majority that say you're nuts!

I take the opTIMistic view of ANT's trajectory thus far. I would argue his advanced stats have been on an upward swing the majority of his career, although some of those stats have stalled over the last two years. It would be negligent of me to not point out those two years coincided with the acquisition of Randle (I know, I'm piling on). Further, this past year has two additional factors contributing to the stall: the "Lead Guard" experiment and the "runners knee" that had him missing a quarter of the season (a killer for VORP!).

TC, Finch and players have all inferred the "Lead Guard" experiment was not very successful. And hopefully the "runners knee" issue is addressed this offseason. The Randle conundrum should go away this offseason as well. I for one am really pumped with what ANT and the Wolves will look like this next season.

Tim, I always appreciate the optimism, and you are correct that missing games hurts VORP...but the missed time doesn't explain away his poor showing in the other advanced stats. But you do make some solid arguments for other reasons his stats don't measure up to the true superstars, so I'll remain hopeful. But until he shows me he can contribute in more ways than just raw offensive stats, I'll continue to worry that his $55 million might not be the best use of that money. I want more than anything to be proven wrong though.

[BeenLurkin]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

I agree with this as much as possible. We all hope and would love for our Wolves to become a dynasty and the talk of the heads and for Ant and Jaden and Naz to prove everyone of us right in seeing their potential and flashes of genius…but I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s true now. Or that we actually believe it has a better than not chance of coming to fruition.
I preach enjoying the moments we get because none of us would be happy buying a Yankees hat and pretending we enjoy bandwagon jumping. What comes along with that is the earned excitement when we even get to sniff a top 5 player or team for an extended time that we didn’t have to rent or have snatched away prematurely. Ant will go down as the best player in franchise history. Finch already is the best coach in franchise history. The ownership and GM have shown they are willing to do anything it takes to build on it….IT DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS!
At 24 it’s too early to say a guy is or isn’t an all timer. But he is worth investing in and let’s see where it takes us!

[FNG]

In all fairness and because he was so amazing last night, I should mention another star offensive player who mostly shows up poorly in various advanced stats...Jalen Brunson. In his case it's understandable because he is a horrible defender. And again like Boston, the Knicks are blessed with a true offensive 1A and 1B. But I'll continue to argue that guys like Brown, Edwards and Brunson are statistical exceptions.

[AussieWolf3]

I know a minority of you are on board with trading ANT for a decent package. But I am with the majority that say you're nuts!

I take the opTIMistic view of ANT's trajectory thus far. I would argue his advanced stats have been on an upward swing the majority of his career, although some of those stats have stalled over the last two years. It would be negligent of me to not point out those two years coincided with the acquisition of Randle (I know, I'm piling on). Further, this past year has two additional factors contributing to the stall: the "Lead Guard" experiment and the "runners knee" that had him missing a quarter of the season (a killer for VORP!).

TC, Finch and players have all inferred the "Lead Guard" experiment was not very successful. And hopefully the "runners knee" issue is addressed this offseason. The Randle conundrum should go away this offseason as well. I for one am really pumped with what ANT and the Wolves will look like this next season.

Tim, I always appreciate the optimism, and you are correct that missing games hurts VORP...but the missed time doesn't explain away his poor showing in the other advanced stats. But you do make some solid arguments for other reasons his stats don't measure up to the true superstars, so I'll remain hopeful. But until he shows me he can contribute in more ways than just raw offensive stats, I'll continue to worry that his $55 million might not be the best use of that money. I want more than anything to be proven wrong though.

If you adjusted Ant's VORP (a shitty stat by the way) for the number of games he's played the last few seasons which is 78-79 his VORP jumps to 4.6 or in other words tied with Cade for 8th.
Can we please be serious when we talk about this?

You keep citing the 55M; in 28'-29' when he'll make that, before any new contracts get signed, he'll be the 12th highest paid player in the league..... Again can we be serious?