Wolves offseason outlook.

[AussieWolf3]

You say that VORP is a shitty statistic, and yet here are the top 5 in the NBA last season: Jokic, SGA, Luka, Victor, Kawhi... they are all impactful true superstars. And of course if we adjust Ant's VORP for games missed, we have to do it for everyone, like Cade, Embiid, etc...and that is likely to move Ant lower on the list.

Tell us your favorite stat and why, and give me the top 10 in the league in that stat ...I want Ant to show up better in deep stats, and I'm willing to accept data if provided. I just haven't been able to find any that show him to be a top 10 player.

I understand why there is such a passionate defense for Ant here...he's a fun player to watch and by far our highest paid player, and being Wolves fans, we want and need to think he is a top 10 player. But I think some here are conflating "hating" Ant with "wanting and needing him to be better"...I know I'm in the second category, and I suspect so is Cool.

One final point: the beauty of this forum is that different opinions are offered and generally accepted respectfully. Just because someone might see something in a different way does not mean they are not "serious"...they just have a different opinion.

I'm working so I can't get into it as deep as I'd like right now, but I do have other stats. I am really hoping to put up a thread in the near future and running through this stuff with Ant and Jaden and everything.

Vorp is a fine quick hitting stat, not unlike net points and others of that caliber. It is not as "deep" a stat as you like to think. Or said a better way, it doesn't measure impact as well as I'd like. It very reliant on box score and minutes played. As I and other have said if you give Ant the same minutes he's played the last few years he basically has the same score as last year and is the top 10, and you know what? I think that's disappointing, I'd like to see that improve not stagnate.

As for other stats, it isn't all roses with him there either. There is a sharp contrast for him since the 23' season in what happens between his "talent" metrics ---Darko and LeBron are good here--- and his impact scores.

The first is really encouraging and great the latter, not so much.

I'm asking you to "be serious" because it consistently appears that you're assessment of Ant is entirely dependent on one stat.... That super flawed even if that's not entirely true. You have also consistently brought up is salary in a few years without even bothering to put it in context of the whole league and the future salary cap.

I have no problem with folks having a lower than consensus opinion of Ant, I just want a sound argument and I don't think yours (or Cool's) is sound. I say that with respect, but I'm still gonna be honest about my opinion.

For what it's worth, I don't have the rosiest opinion of the kid either, and am unsure of how hopeful to be about his future. Given his ability, skills, his hard work, and the experience he's gained at playing at the highest level; he should have better winning habits. Three years of this team smacking its head on the glass ceiling in the playoffs and we're still needing to build "championship habits"? I think that's really concerning. The scar tissue should already be there for him, Jaden and Naz... I'm really bothered that it isn't

As a a scorer skill wise he's better than ever when healthy. He didn't have a 3pt shot two years ago, he didn't have a post up game last season (knees didn't let him post up in the playoffs this year) he wasn't clutch his first 5 seasons. He has improved out of the double teams, still needs to get better.

It took KG 8 playoffs to figure out how to get out of the first round. That doesn't diminish KG from being one of the top 25ish players of all time. Bringing in players and mentors with championship experience can certainly help. San Antonio is filled with championship mentors all around them. Popovich, Duncan, Robinson, all of them are mentors to these young Spurs lead by an alien. Their coach Mitch was under Pop for a long time gaining that championship pedigree. Caruso's championship pedigree from the Lakers goes a long way for OKC. Someone from the East is going to their first finals of this era, lead by Brunson who is 29 years old, and their starting lineup is all 28 or older. Cleveland is lead by Mitchel (also 29 years old) who is finally in his first conference finals. The reason they are here (also the reason they lost the last game) was trading for 36 year old Harden. Put the right team around Ant, and we really have some thing here.

Now that Wemby is in the league, the chances of us winning a championship has decreased quite a bit (at least unless we move to the East in a few years to get to the final easier) If you go to other teams message boards some are saying why even try the next decade lets rebuild with Wemby around. Boston fans are saying, thank god we got that championship in 2024, because we have no chance with Wemby in the league. Now I have my doubts Wemby is going to have a long healthy career, that body screams back and knee issues as he gets older with the way he plays.

I think that's all really good context, and I think this core, especially Ant can keep growing and learning. I just think it's unfortunate that the whole point of bringing floor raisers like Rudy was to get these young guys playoff experience and that experience seem to marinate pretty slowly with these guys

[AussieWolf3]

I'd really like for this thread to not devolve into an Ant thread, so I wanted to throw something out there that I've been thinking about.
Which is: who are some less conventional players that could be acquired one way or another who could help this team?
So not the usual names--- Giannis, Kyrie, Morant, yada yada but guys who aren't talked about a lot. I have a few.
First would be Kristaps. He's a FA, the health is concerning, but he would probably fit in completely seamless.
Dejounte Murrary is another one since the shine has come off his name quite a bit in recent years. Risky choice but a great fit.

Tre Jones, who wouldn't fix the starting lineup but would address the matter of adding more ball handling.

People aren't gonna like this one, but what about Sabonis? His stock is crazy low right now, but at his best he's a one of the best playmaking bigs, doesn't shoot a lot but is a really good shooter and is much better than guys like Julius at actually getting all the way to the rim. He would have to be protected on defense but I think Jaden would help there if he's playing PF and then you need to add a quality wing Defender at the PG position or Ant would finally have to own that.

It's not a popular list but they'll have to get creative. I wanna hear even more obscure names!

I think they get better just by subtracting Julius, but they'd still be a piece or two away.

[Coolbreeze44]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

If it's an artificial argument, why do I get attacked every time I say something mildly negative about him? I don't really want him to be traded, I just don't think he should be considered untradeable. He's one of the best in the world at getting his own offense, but what does that do for the other 4 players on the floor? What the hell was he doing in the Spurs huddle with 8 minutes left in the game? With his supposed greatness, why couldn't we stay within 25 points of the Spurs for half the series?

[guest81]

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

If it's an artificial argument, why do I get attacked every time I say something mildly negative about him? I don't really want him to be traded, I just don't think he should be considered untradeable. He's one of the best in the world at getting his own offense, but what does that do for the other 4 players on the floor? What the hell was he doing in the Spurs huddle with 8 minutes left in the game? With his supposed greatness, why couldn't we stay within 25 points of the Spurs for half the series?

You know he was playing on 2 bad knees in that series right? I don't think saying that Castle and Harper are pretty close to being as good as Ant as a mild criticism, it's at best trolling, at worst just stupid.

[WildWolf2813]

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

If it's an artificial argument, why do I get attacked every time I say something mildly negative about him? I don't really want him to be traded, I just don't think he should be considered untradeable. He's one of the best in the world at getting his own offense, but what does that do for the other 4 players on the floor? What the hell was he doing in the Spurs huddle with 8 minutes left in the game? With his supposed greatness, why couldn't we stay within 25 points of the Spurs for half the series?

Because you don't have an alternative plan that actually improves the team. It just makes it easier for you to stomach watching them.

[Q-is-here]

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

If it's an artificial argument, why do I get attacked every time I say something mildly negative about him? I don't really want him to be traded, I just don't think he should be considered untradeable. He's one of the best in the world at getting his own offense, but what does that do for the other 4 players on the floor? What the hell was he doing in the Spurs huddle with 8 minutes left in the game? With his supposed greatness, why couldn't we stay within 25 points of the Spurs for half the series?

Because you don't have an alternative plan that actually improves the team. It just makes it easier for you to stomach watching them.

He suggested that trading Ant for Jalen Duren was a good idea. Or how about his idea of trading Ant for Eason, Thompson, and Smith? Which of those guys that couldn't even get out of the 1st round against the Doncic-less Lakers is going to lead us to a title?

[AussieWolf3]

I wanted to drop this here because it often feels like people have amnesia about how certain players were thought of even a few years ago, and it's why I consistently bring up Ant being 24 years old and has mostly been on a developmental track that is right in line with many great players respective to where they were at that age. In regards to that track this year was a step backwards imo, but it was also his most injury plagued season, which you can adjust however you want with that.

Anyway here is a CBS article of player rankings for the 22-23' season when SGA was 24 years old. This was published in February 23'

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nbas ... of-top-10/

" 8. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

SGA is in the midst of a breakout campaign. He's putting up the best numbers of his career, and the only reason that he hasn't received more attention coast to coast is because the Thunder aren't a contending team, so they aren't on national television or discussed in the media as much as some other teams and stars are. But Gilgeous-Alexander is one of just five players league-wide averaging at least 30 points and five assists per performance. He was named to his first All-Star team as a result, and he's a legitimate candidate for the Most Improved Player of the Year Award. He'll also likely land on an All-NBA team for the first time at the end of the season."

Most people would rank Ant somewhere between 5 and 10, and it's just funny to me that just a few years ago SGA was held in a similar light. I'm sure a lot of Thunder diehards believed he had more or less peaked as well.

Obviously this is predictive at all but things change quickly

[Coolbreeze44]

I get it, when you have bold opinions and you're willing to throw them out there, you invite a lot of pushback and criticism. It's not like this is the first time I've been panned for doing it. But look at my track record. I've been accurate on several topics that have been challenged just like this one is. Nobody ever remembers those after the fact. I think Ant is a top 7-15 player in the league, is that so terrible? If that means I hate Ant I guess it's true.

[Phenom]

So reading this thread... I've learned Anthony Edwards will not be as good of a player as the greatest basketball player of all time. Ummm... ok. I'm not exactly shocked by this declaration.

I also learned that S. Castle and D. Harper are basically as good as Anthony Edwards. Gotta be honest, that one shocked me a bit.

Cool really really really hates Anthony Edwards, doesn't he?

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

For context, leading up that game there was a ton of complaining about Ant getting his teammates involved, so, like you, I was going to one extreme to balance the scales.

[AbeVigodaLive]

No my man, I'm just so tired of all the excuses. One year it was his back, this year it was his knees, he's only 25, he doesn't have a robin to his batman, he can play defense if he wants to, people don't make shots when he passes the ball.
He's a gifted offensive player with all world athleticism. But there are a lot of great offensive players in the league. He might be a top 10 player in the league, that's a lonnnggggggg way from MJ or Kobe. This is probably the 5th time I've had to explain this. Why can't I believe he's a an all star level player without posters saying I hate him? I just don't think he's as great as a large percentage of the board believes. Actually, I know he's not.

I think you're creating an artificial argument that you're arguing against.

Who here has expectations of Edwards as the #1 player (or #10) best player in NBA history?

The "large percentage" of people on this forum (and pretty much everywhere else) claim he's somewhere in the #5 - #10 range of current players. So while almost all of us agree that he's an All Star or All NBA player and not All Time GOAT... only one is bashing him incessantly lately, apparently for not meeting unrealistic expectations that maybe only he has for the player.

We all know Edwards is a very good player who has improved in some way every season. And we all know that he is a flawed player who must continue to improve to get anywhere close to MVP discussions. It's a disservice to the many great and objective posters here that this would even be in question.

If it's an artificial argument, why do I get attacked every time I say something mildly negative about him? I don't really want him to be traded, I just don't think he should be considered untradeable. He's one of the best in the world at getting his own offense, but what does that do for the other 4 players on the floor? What the hell was he doing in the Spurs huddle with 8 minutes left in the game? With his supposed greatness, why couldn't we stay within 25 points of the Spurs for half the series?

I'm merely "attacking" you for thinking any of us expect him to be the next Jordan or Kobe. Or, when you declare guys like Castle or Harper as good as him... right now. Those are statements that will almost always be refuted online because they are a bit out there.

That's just how social media works.

If you read posts from most of the people here, however, you will read Anthony Edwards criticisms from almost all of us.