It feels like ANT 2.0, doesn't it?

[60WinTim]

I feel like I highjacked Tim's thread with my Kyrie bit (sorry Tim!), and obviously Ant 2.0 is a much broader topic. So I'm going to tee up a thread just for the purpose of addressing Kyrie.

No problems! I can easily foresee Kyrie being part of ANT 2.0.

You mentioned Ayo being included, but I don't think a sign-and-trade can be a component of a larger trade that brings back Kyrie. Basically, it has to be Randle and Donte, plus whatever other minor asset(s) is needed to get the deal done. It likely means a 3rd team is needed. And I will add, sending Randle and Donte out for Kyrie does a WORLD OF GOOD for the Wolves cap situation. So bring it on!

[guest81]

I hear a lot about Ant 2.0, but I'm not exactly sure what it means. It seems to me Ant 2.0 happened when we traded away a lot of his teammates for Rudy, and then we had Ant 3.0 when we traded his co-star KAT for Randle and Donte...those were both very significant roster changes designed to put exactly the right combination of players around Ant. But while both of those moves were prudent I thought, they haven't proved to be enough. So now we are likely on the cusp of Ant 4.0, and we're all curious to see what TC is going to do.

I've stayed away from the PG thread because it's silent (except for Q's opening summary) with respect to my first choice and one that seems to be gaining a lot of steam...trading for Kyrie Irving. I'm pretty much on an island here with my belief that Ant is not a complete enough package to lead this team to a championship. But he is an incredible shooter and scorer, and I think the best version of Ant would emerge if he were playing next to 2 certain Hall of Famers in Rudy and Kyrie. Kyrie would allow Ant to play much more off ball, and would give the Wolves two elite scorers.

Jim Souhan talks about a Kyrie trade in this morning's Strib, and apparently Jonny Athletic posted something recently about Ant privately lobbying to trade for him. What would it take to get it done? What I see most often is Randle, Ayo and either our 2032 pick or this year's...I would do that in a heartbeat. I'd be less excited about including Donte in that trade instead of Ayo, but I would still like it. I think a starting lineup of Rudy/Naz/Jaden/Ant/Kyrie instantly puts us in the chip conversation.

Why does Dallas do it? There is some talk that Kyrie is not interested in finishing his career with a team that is building around a teenager and not likely to be a contender before Kyrie retires. Irving has matured since his early flat earth days, but he still has a mercurial side to him...Dallas doesn't want a malcontent around their budding star. Getting draft capital and two players who potentially move into starting roles (only if they think Ayo is a better option in the backcourt than either Christie or Williams) is a good deal for them...and moody Ju would likely be delighted to be back home, even if he were playing for a lottery team.

I know most here see Ant as a #1 on a championship team and maybe someday he gets there...but right now the deep stats he's putting up in the role the Wolves have carved out for him bear little resemblance to those of the true #1's. And I think he gets to that level in a hurry if he is allowed to play SG next to a future HOFer. I think TC needs to swing for the fences this off season, and the other big swing option (Giannis) would create a really bad fit. And any kind of smaller deal smacks of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Bringing Kyrie right now will instantly lead to the best version of Ant, and when he retires in 2 or 3 years, TC can use the cap space to go find Ant's next Robin...or Batman.

Git 'er done!

Never understood why it would take that much to get Kyrie. He hasn't played in a year and is 34. Why is his value higher than Randle himself?

Because we've seen what a healthy Kyrie can do for a team. There's a defined role and teams who seek that out. Randle doesn't really fit on a good or bad team.

Kyries last playoff series was pretty much as bad as Randle's

[Monster]

I feel like I highjacked Tim's thread with my Kyrie bit (sorry Tim!), and obviously Ant 2.0 is a much broader topic. So I'm going to tee up a thread just for the purpose of addressing Kyrie.

No problems! I can easily foresee Kyrie being part of ANT 2.0.

You mentioned Ayo being included, but I don't think a sign-and-trade can be a component of a larger trade that brings back Kyrie. Basically, it has to be Randle and Donte, plus whatever other minor asset(s) is needed to get the deal done. It likely means a 3rd team is needed. And I will add, sending Randle and Donte out for Kyrie does a WORLD OF GOOD for the Wolves cap situation. So bring it on!

You are right Tim sign and trade players can't be aggravated in a trade. It looks like Dallas has a trade exception that they could use if they wanted to do a sign and trade for Ayo...which is interesting. According to Sportrac MN has a couple smaller trade exemptions. One is 10.8 million and another is 6.6 million. Those could be useful.

Kyrie is making a couple million less than I was thinking. He and Randle could be traded straight up or if they needed a salary filler they could throw in a Julian Phillips although I'm not sure that makes sense for either team. Randle doesn't really make sense for Dallas anyway so a 3rd team would likely need to be added. Of course the question is what direction is Dallas gonna go with a new decision maker in charge and a new coach coming in?

[AussieWolf3]

For all the consternation about trading for a 2nd star and all the things this team needs. Even with my own misgivings about the lineup I'm about to propose, I still have to ask, is this lineup really that far away?

Ayo
Ant
Naz
Jaden
Rudy
-----
Wiggins (?)
TJ
Joan
Bones
Clark
Anderson
Rocko

I didn't think too hard about the order of the depth past TJ, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that that starting 5 is better than this year's. Just the spacing being better would be a huge improvement. The question is how do Jaden, Naz, and Ayo grow into their roles. This lineup also doesn't really get Ant off ball that much, and still ask him to read the floor at a better level than this year, but the reads will be much more simple.

I honestly don't know what to do with Rudy. Feels like Kirk Cousins all over again honestly

Edit:
This lineup played 29 non garbage time minutes together in the regular season and had a +8.1 net rating (+10.6/-2.5).

That's pretty mild encouragement, however that same lineup played 83 minutes with Dante instead of Ayo and had a +16 net rating (+10.4/+5.6).

The biggest thing for me is, can Jaden be a secondary scorer and can Ayo be the POA defender so Jaden can play off ball (where he's best)?

[60WinTim]

For all the consternation about trading for a 2nd star and all the things this team needs. Even with my own misgivings about the lineup I'm about to propose, I still have to ask, is this lineup really that far away?

Ayo
Ant
Naz
Jaden
Rudy
-----
Wiggins (?)
TJ
Joan
Bones
Clark
Anderson
Rocko

I didn't think too hard about the order of the depth past TJ, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that that starting 5 is better than this year's. Just the spacing being better would be a huge improvement. The question is how do Jaden, Naz, and Ayo grow into their roles. This lineup also doesn't really get Ant off ball that much, and still ask him to read the floor at a better level than this year, but the reads will be much more simple.

I honestly don't know what to do with Rudy. Feels like Kirk Cousins all over again honestly

Edit:
This lineup played 29 non garbage time minutes together in the regular season and had a +8.1 net rating (+10.6/-2.5).

That's pretty mild encouragement, however that same lineup played 83 minutes with Dante instead of Ayo and had a +16 net rating (+10.4/+5.6).

The biggest thing for me is, can Jaden be a secondary scorer and can Ayo be the POA defender so Jaden can play off ball (where he's best)?

I think you are right, and there is a high probability that the only significant change is Randle for someone else that fits the 1-3 mold. Wiggins is definitely a possibility, although my gut tells me he'll be part of Giannis trade. But you have most everyone else returning with several of them having golden opportunities to step up with Randle gone.

As for Rudy, I think he is still needed as Joan and Rocco work to remove their training wheels over the next year or two. I also think Mike will be back, although not part of the regular rotation. Plus we'll have a first round pick (if not moved in a Randle trade).

[AussieWolf3]

For all the consternation about trading for a 2nd star and all the things this team needs. Even with my own misgivings about the lineup I'm about to propose, I still have to ask, is this lineup really that far away?

Ayo
Ant
Naz
Jaden
Rudy
-----
Wiggins (?)
TJ
Joan
Bones
Clark
Anderson
Rocko

I didn't think too hard about the order of the depth past TJ, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that that starting 5 is better than this year's. Just the spacing being better would be a huge improvement. The question is how do Jaden, Naz, and Ayo grow into their roles. This lineup also doesn't really get Ant off ball that much, and still ask him to read the floor at a better level than this year, but the reads will be much more simple.

I honestly don't know what to do with Rudy. Feels like Kirk Cousins all over again honestly

Edit:
This lineup played 29 non garbage time minutes together in the regular season and had a +8.1 net rating (+10.6/-2.5).

That's pretty mild encouragement, however that same lineup played 83 minutes with Dante instead of Ayo and had a +16 net rating (+10.4/+5.6).

The biggest thing for me is, can Jaden be a secondary scorer and can Ayo be the POA defender so Jaden can play off ball (where he's best)?

I think you are right, and there is a high probability that the only significant change is Randle for someone else that fits the 1-3 mold. Wiggins is definitely a possibility, although my gut tells me he'll be part of Giannis trade. But you have most everyone else returning with several of them having golden opportunities to step up with Randle gone.

As for Rudy, I think he is still needed as Joan and Rocco work to remove their training wheels over the next year or two. I also think Mike will be back, although not part of the regular rotation. Plus we'll have a first round pick (if not moved in a Randle trade).

To be clear, I'm not predicting anything. I'm just legitimately wondering if that starting 5 is really all that bad heading into the fall?
Give Jaden and Naz a chance to grow into more than they are now and if necessary you make a move at the deadline.
I'm not sure that's the best answer, but I'm not convinced it's a step back from this year and if it proves to be more synergistic than it's likely a step forward

[Q-is-here]

For all the consternation about trading for a 2nd star and all the things this team needs. Even with my own misgivings about the lineup I'm about to propose, I still have to ask, is this lineup really that far away?

Ayo
Ant
Naz
Jaden
Rudy
-----
Wiggins (?)
TJ
Joan
Bones
Clark
Anderson
Rocko

I didn't think too hard about the order of the depth past TJ, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that that starting 5 is better than this year's. Just the spacing being better would be a huge improvement. The question is how do Jaden, Naz, and Ayo grow into their roles. This lineup also doesn't really get Ant off ball that much, and still ask him to read the floor at a better level than this year, but the reads will be much more simple.

I honestly don't know what to do with Rudy. Feels like Kirk Cousins all over again honestly

Edit:
This lineup played 29 non garbage time minutes together in the regular season and had a +8.1 net rating (+10.6/-2.5).

That's pretty mild encouragement, however that same lineup played 83 minutes with Dante instead of Ayo and had a +16 net rating (+10.4/+5.6).

The biggest thing for me is, can Jaden be a secondary scorer and can Ayo be the POA defender so Jaden can play off ball (where he's best)?

I think you are right, and there is a high probability that the only significant change is Randle for someone else that fits the 1-3 mold. Wiggins is definitely a possibility, although my gut tells me he'll be part of Giannis trade. But you have most everyone else returning with several of them having golden opportunities to step up with Randle gone.

As for Rudy, I think he is still needed as Joan and Rocco work to remove their training wheels over the next year or two. I also think Mike will be back, although not part of the regular rotation. Plus we'll have a first round pick (if not moved in a Randle trade).

To be clear, I'm not predicting anything. I'm just legitimately wondering if that starting 5 is really all that bad heading into the fall?
Give Jaden and Naz a chance to grow into more than they are now and if necessary you make a move at the deadline.
I'm not sure that's the best answer, but I'm not convinced it's a step back from this year and if it proves to be more synergistic than it's likely a step forward

Well, it certainly isn't "all that bad", but it's probably not good enough to knock off a fully healthy OKC or San Antonio. Then again, there may literally be nothing we can do within the realm of NBA rules and cap constraints that could get us up to their level, so there is a good case for patience.

[AussieWolf3]

I think you are right, and there is a high probability that the only significant change is Randle for someone else that fits the 1-3 mold. Wiggins is definitely a possibility, although my gut tells me he'll be part of Giannis trade. But you have most everyone else returning with several of them having golden opportunities to step up with Randle gone.

As for Rudy, I think he is still needed as Joan and Rocco work to remove their training wheels over the next year or two. I also think Mike will be back, although not part of the regular rotation. Plus we'll have a first round pick (if not moved in a Randle trade).

To be clear, I'm not predicting anything. I'm just legitimately wondering if that starting 5 is really all that bad heading into the fall?
Give Jaden and Naz a chance to grow into more than they are now and if necessary you make a move at the deadline.
I'm not sure that's the best answer, but I'm not convinced it's a step back from this year and if it proves to be more synergistic than it's likely a step forward

Well, it certainly isn't "all that bad", but it's probably not good enough to knock off a fully healthy OKC or San Antonio. Then again, there may literally be nothing we can do within the realm of NBA rules and cap constraints that could get us up to their level, so there is a good case for patience.

This is literally all I'm saying.
I don't see a valid reason why that starting unit isn't as good or better than this year's. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic about Jaden and Naz, but ultimately if we're gonna keep hearing from the team about how good Jaden could be then they might as well give him a chance to prove it.
That's really all I'm asking for, is the opportunity to see if Jaden is actually up to that level. Can he be the 20th best player? That's a crazy leap but it seems reasonable to me to suggest that is his ceiling (I'm saying its reasonable to say he'll get there, just that it is his ceiling).

I'm just tired of the Gobert/Randle tinted glass ceiling that this team keeps hitting and I really want to know how could these "core" guys can be.

I'm 95% sure that Ant, Jaden, and Naz can't get to Shai, Chet, JDub level but what can they get to?

[Q-is-here]

To be clear, I'm not predicting anything. I'm just legitimately wondering if that starting 5 is really all that bad heading into the fall?
Give Jaden and Naz a chance to grow into more than they are now and if necessary you make a move at the deadline.
I'm not sure that's the best answer, but I'm not convinced it's a step back from this year and if it proves to be more synergistic than it's likely a step forward

Well, it certainly isn't "all that bad", but it's probably not good enough to knock off a fully healthy OKC or San Antonio. Then again, there may literally be nothing we can do within the realm of NBA rules and cap constraints that could get us up to their level, so there is a good case for patience.

This is literally all I'm saying.
I don't see a valid reason why that starting unit isn't as good or better than this year's. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic about Jaden and Naz, but ultimately if we're gonna keep hearing from the team about how good Jaden could be then they might as well give him a chance to prove it.
That's really all I'm asking for, is the opportunity to see if Jaden is actually up to that level. Can he be the 20th best player? That's a crazy leap but it seems reasonable to me to suggest that is his ceiling (I'm saying its reasonable to say he'll get there, just that it is his ceiling).

I'm just tired of the Gobert/Randle tinted glass ceiling that this team keeps hitting and I really want to know how could these "core" guys can be.

I'm 95% sure that Ant, Jaden, and Naz can't get to Shai, Chet, JDub level but what can they get to?

It's probably a first round or second round playoff team which is still a good team. We can really rip the band-aid off by trading Rudy for cap space/younger vets and then at that point Ant, Jaden, and Naz truly are on their own, so to speak. But if it comes with some hopeful surrounding talent that we think can grow more together it may be worth it....or may be the defense completely collapses, we can't get out of the play-in, and Ant wants out. That's the "patience" risk if we aren't trading for bigger names.

[Lipoli390]

Ways in which the Wolves might be a better team next season from day 1:

1. If we move Randle this summer I think there is an addition by subtraction benefit regardless of who we get in return, provided we don’t acquire a similar player for our staring lineup. I Randle’s departure would make Jaden and Naz better, while improving the team’s overall offensive flow.

2. If we re-sign Ayo, I think we’re a significantly improved team at the PG position. I like Donte, buy Ayo strikes me as a better, more natural PG. If Ayo does no better than his average, he’ll be giving us 15 point, 4 rebounds, 4 assists and a steal per game as a starter. If he turns out to be close to the player we say in the Denver series, then we can honestly start talking about about the Wolves as a contender with the top two in the West.

3. Given his age, it is likely that Ant will be a better next season.

4. I still see tremendous potential in TSJ, which he’s shown at times against top competition in the playoffs both last year and this year. I think his foot injury completely derailed him, which leads me to believe that a healthy TSJ can be a very good rotation contributor next season.

I don’t want to put too much stock in these four things, but do see this team improving at least a little as a result if them. If Joan or Rocco takes a big step forward, that’s a bonus but I’m not counting on it.

I think the Wolves can combine Ju and our #28 pick to acquire a very good rotation player who fills a team need and plays a style that meshes well with our other rotation guys.