Which deal(s) do you like best

[Monster]

I don't disagree that it's absolutely essential that we get a prolific second option...more important that we find someone who can take Ant off the ball, and I'm not as convinced as some here that we have that person on our current roster. But it would be fun to get a really good second option too. And that's why I'm on the Irving train. Not only is he one of the best ball handlers of all time, but he would also be a legitimate 1B, or possibly even a 1A. Of all the rumored deals out there, this one seems to have the most steam (with JA catching up unfortunately). I don't think Ju plus two picks is too much to give up, and Dallas might bite if they thought Irving wanted out.

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Wasn't Kyries value super low then due to covid and anti semetic remarks? Seemed to me like Nets were desperate to get off of him. I don't see that with the Mavs.

It's also worth considering DFS likely had some decent value in that deal. The previous season was a career best and while his stats were down before he was dealt he was sort of a known commodity of at least a pretty solid 2 way rotation player but he had also started plenty of games. He didn't exactly tear it up but he was eventually moved to the Lakers along with Wolves Legend Shake Milton in a trade that was good for both teams and the Nets got some 2nd round picks. He played well for the Lakers and got a pretty nice 4 year deal last off-season from the Rockets. To make a comparison to someone the Wolves had on their roster recently I'd say he was likely more valuable than Kyle Anderson was his last season with the Wolves so that's not nothing. If he would have played better sooner they probably would have moved him sooner for someone looking for help.

Dinwiddie ended up being traded to the Raptors in a move to save money for the Raptors with the Nets acquiring Schoeder and Thad Young. They later traded Schoeder to the Warriors along with a 2nd rounder to acquire guys the Warriors wanted to move off of and acquired three 2nd round picks. There were more than a couple teams excited to sign Dinwiddie when the Raptors waived him.

So the Nets either got some value from those guys or having them as contracts helped them do some deals to acquire some minor assets. Again not nothing.

[Lipoli390]

I don't disagree that it's absolutely essential that we get a prolific second option...more important that we find someone who can take Ant off the ball, and I'm not as convinced as some here that we have that person on our current roster. But it would be fun to get a really good second option too. And that's why I'm on the Irving train. Not only is he one of the best ball handlers of all time, but he would also be a legitimate 1B, or possibly even a 1A. Of all the rumored deals out there, this one seems to have the most steam (with JA catching up unfortunately). I don't think Ju plus two picks is too much to give up, and Dallas might bite if they thought Irving wanted out.

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Wasn't Kyries value super low then due to covid and anti semetic remarks? Seemed to me like Nets were desperate to get off of him. I don't see that with the Mavs.

All I know is that Kyrie’s market value then was what the Mavs gave up to get him - which wasn’t that much. The relative impact of various factors on that market value is impossible to know and hard to speculate on. He’s always had a reputation as a mercurial figure who sets himself apart and doesn’t fully commit to his team or teammates. He’s also a player who has shown a remarkable lack of durability since his mid 20s. I suspect concerns about his attitude and lack of durability were the factors that most defined his market value. Meanwhile, it seems obvious that Kyrie’s market value now at age 34 coming off ACL surgery is significantly lower than his value back then as a player who had just turned 31 with no recent major injury. Kyrie’s anti-Semitic remarks haven’t disappeared into some time warp so whatever negative impact those remarks had on his value live on as a matter of record and they would impact his market value as much today as then.

[FNG]

Been thinking about this as well. The #1 need is a primary ball-handler who can consistently take that pressure off Ant and be able to hit an open shot. IMO it needs to be a value add and not an overpay that guts part of the rotation. It's also why as much as I like the Kyrie idea, if DAL is demanding a stupid return, it's a no go.

I don't disagree that it's absolutely essential that we get a prolific second option...more important that we find someone who can take Ant off the ball, and I'm not as convinced as some here that we have that person on our current roster. But it would be fun to get a really good second option too. And that's why I'm on the Irving train. Not only is he one of the best ball handlers of all time, but he would also be a legitimate 1B, or possibly even a 1A. Of all the rumored deals out there, this one seems to have the most steam (with JA catching up unfortunately). I don't think Ju plus two picks is too much to give up, and Dallas might bite if they thought Irving wanted out.

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Ayo's college experience tells me you (and others) could be correct about his potential as a PG...he averaged over 5 APG his final year. But the NBA is a different game, and to date he hasn't looked like a PG to me. He's reliable to be sure...seems to have a pretty good handle. But he's also far too cautious...he's too comfortable moving the ball around the perimeter making a safe non-productive pass rather than looking to set someone up for a shot. Possessions in which he originates the action always seem to be 15 seconds deep before anything constructive happens. Maybe given more opportunity he could develop into a productive PG, but I haven't seen it to date...and that's why I'm hoping TC brings in a true PG to line up next to Ant, and puts Ayo back in his best position as a scoring SG off the bench.

[Q-is-here]

I don't disagree that it's absolutely essential that we get a prolific second option...more important that we find someone who can take Ant off the ball, and I'm not as convinced as some here that we have that person on our current roster. But it would be fun to get a really good second option too. And that's why I'm on the Irving train. Not only is he one of the best ball handlers of all time, but he would also be a legitimate 1B, or possibly even a 1A. Of all the rumored deals out there, this one seems to have the most steam (with JA catching up unfortunately). I don't think Ju plus two picks is too much to give up, and Dallas might bite if they thought Irving wanted out.

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Ayo's college experience tells me you (and others) could be correct about his potential as a PG...he averaged over 5 APG his final year. But the NBA is a different game, and to date he hasn't looked like a PG to me. He's reliable to be sure...seems to have a pretty good handle. But he's also far too cautious...he's too comfortable moving the ball around the perimeter making a safe non-productive pass rather than looking to set someone up for a shot. Possessions in which he originates the action always seem to be 15 seconds deep before anything constructive happens. Maybe given more opportunity he could develop into a productive PG, but I haven't seen it to date...and that's why I'm hoping TC brings in a true PG to line up next to Ant, and puts Ayo back in his best position as a scoring SG off the bench.

Ayo is the "answer" at PG insofar that he can bring the ball up and set up the offense without turning it over, something that DDV and NAW struggled with in that role when applied with ball pressure. So I still think he inches us closer to what we're looking for, but still less than ideal. He also checks other important boxes, like being able to hit 3-pointers at an accurate clip, increase our pace, and he's a hard-working, switchable defender.

The other route Connelly can take is to get a better version of Randle on the team, which would be a Zion Williamson or Giannis trade (fully realizing that those come with there own risks). Both those guys can make plays for others in the half court and would take Ant off the ball. Ayo at PG may be adequate if we land one of those two.

[FNG]

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Ayo's college experience tells me you (and others) could be correct about his potential as a PG...he averaged over 5 APG his final year. But the NBA is a different game, and to date he hasn't looked like a PG to me. He's reliable to be sure...seems to have a pretty good handle. But he's also far too cautious...he's too comfortable moving the ball around the perimeter making a safe non-productive pass rather than looking to set someone up for a shot. Possessions in which he originates the action always seem to be 15 seconds deep before anything constructive happens. Maybe given more opportunity he could develop into a productive PG, but I haven't seen it to date...and that's why I'm hoping TC brings in a true PG to line up next to Ant, and puts Ayo back in his best position as a scoring SG off the bench.

Ayo is the "answer" at PG insofar that he can bring the ball up and set up the offense without turning it over, something that DDV and NAW struggled with in that role when applied with ball pressure. So I still think he inches us closer to what we're looking for, but still less than ideal. He also checks other important boxes, like being able to hit 3-pointers at an accurate clip, increase our pace, and he's a hard-working, switchable defender.

The other route Connelly can take is to get a better version of Randle on the team, which would be a Zion Williamson or Giannis trade (fully realizing that those come with there own risks). Both those guys can make plays for others in the half court and would take Ant off the ball. Ayo at PG may be adequate if we land one of those two.

I think your perception of Ayo mirrors mine, Q, and I will jump on the bandwagon if TC isn't able to bring in a more productive PG. And to Grey's point, he may develop more PG skills if Finchy gives him the reins.

[TheGrey08]

Ayo is the "answer" at PG insofar that he can bring the ball up and set up the offense without turning it over, something that DDV and NAW struggled with in that role when applied with ball pressure. So I still think he inches us closer to what we're looking for, but still less than ideal. He also checks other important boxes, like being able to hit 3-pointers at an accurate clip, increase our pace, and he's a hard-working, switchable defender.

The other route Connelly can take is to get a better version of Randle on the team, which would be a Zion Williamson or Giannis trade (fully realizing that those come with there own risks). Both those guys can make plays for others in the half court and would take Ant off the ball. Ayo at PG may be adequate if we land one of those two.

I think your perception of Ayo mirrors mine, Q, and I will jump on the bandwagon if TC isn't able to bring in a more productive PG. And to Grey's point, he may develop more PG skills if Finchy gives him the reins.

Responding to the chain in one go, but that's the gist of it. If TC is not able to pull off a trade that brings in a PG upgrade and ends up upgrading the PF fit with Randle going out, I won't be too worried about Ayo running the offense if Finch does with him what he did with Ant when he made him the de-facto PG for a season. Fair points about him playing safe, etc. In that situation they should be trying to unlock some play making & aggressiveness in him (especially using his speed) by getting him fully take on the PG role/mindset, not just being a combo guard next to Ant.

Either way at the very least we need to see Randle out and a new PF & a legit ball-handling guard added to the rotation.

[Q-is-here]

Ayo is the "answer" at PG insofar that he can bring the ball up and set up the offense without turning it over, something that DDV and NAW struggled with in that role when applied with ball pressure. So I still think he inches us closer to what we're looking for, but still less than ideal. He also checks other important boxes, like being able to hit 3-pointers at an accurate clip, increase our pace, and he's a hard-working, switchable defender.

The other route Connelly can take is to get a better version of Randle on the team, which would be a Zion Williamson or Giannis trade (fully realizing that those come with there own risks). Both those guys can make plays for others in the half court and would take Ant off the ball. Ayo at PG may be adequate if we land one of those two.

I think your perception of Ayo mirrors mine, Q, and I will jump on the bandwagon if TC isn't able to bring in a more productive PG. And to Grey's point, he may develop more PG skills if Finchy gives him the reins.

Responding to the chain in one go, but that's the gist of it. If TC is not able to pull off a trade that brings in a PG upgrade and ends up upgrading the PF fit with Randle going out, I won't be too worried about Ayo running the offense if Finch does with him what he did with Ant when he made him the de-facto PG for a season. Fair points about him playing safe, etc. In that situation they should be trying to unlock some play making & aggressiveness in him (especially using his speed) by getting him fully take on the PG role/mindset, not just being a combo guard next to Ant.

Either way at the very least we need to see Randle out and a new PF & a legit ball-handling guard added to the rotation.

I do wonder if simply replacing Randle with Reid in the starting lineup opens up enough space that we don't need some maestro at the helm to thread perfect pocket passes and direct traffic amidst a crowded lane. Just seems to simply things a bit more for someone like Ayo (and Ant for that matter).

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't disagree that it's absolutely essential that we get a prolific second option...more important that we find someone who can take Ant off the ball, and I'm not as convinced as some here that we have that person on our current roster. But it would be fun to get a really good second option too. And that's why I'm on the Irving train. Not only is he one of the best ball handlers of all time, but he would also be a legitimate 1B, or possibly even a 1A. Of all the rumored deals out there, this one seems to have the most steam (with JA catching up unfortunately). I don't think Ju plus two picks is too much to give up, and Dallas might bite if they thought Irving wanted out.

I do think Ayo has the potential to be that type of guard if coaches fully put him in that role. Not sure how much I would bet on that success, but I don't hate the idea of them going that route if a better fit doesn't materialize (gotta add 1 more ball handler regardless though). Kyrie being an all time elite level ball handlers on top of being an elite scorer is what makes the idea so intriguing. We haven't seen anything close to that next to Ant. Now onto trade value.

Here's the trade from a few years ago.

Brooklyn receives:
Spencer Dinwiddie
Dorian Finney-Smith
2027 second-round pick
2029 first-round pick (unprotected)
2029 second round-pick

Dallas receives:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris

What would be the current Wolves equivalent of that trade? (current Wolves roster with the 2023 Mavs players involved in the trade)

Basically wondering how close Randle & 2 firsts is to what the Mavs gave up for him and then factoring in age/injury risk for his current trade value. I'm not so sure Randle and 1 first is an unreasonable offer. Randle could go to a 3rd team for a pick or other young asset.

Ayo's college experience tells me you (and others) could be correct about his potential as a PG...he averaged over 5 APG his final year. But the NBA is a different game, and to date he hasn't looked like a PG to me. He's reliable to be sure...seems to have a pretty good handle. But he's also far too cautious...he's too comfortable moving the ball around the perimeter making a safe non-productive pass rather than looking to set someone up for a shot. Possessions in which he originates the action always seem to be 15 seconds deep before anything constructive happens. Maybe given more opportunity he could develop into a productive PG, but I haven't seen it to date...and that's why I'm hoping TC brings in a true PG to line up next to Ant, and puts Ayo back in his best position as a scoring SG off the bench.

Couldn't agree more Fungo, all of it.

[AussieWolf3]

Ayo is the "answer" at PG insofar that he can bring the ball up and set up the offense without turning it over, something that DDV and NAW struggled with in that role when applied with ball pressure. So I still think he inches us closer to what we're looking for, but still less than ideal. He also checks other important boxes, like being able to hit 3-pointers at an accurate clip, increase our pace, and he's a hard-working, switchable defender.

The other route Connelly can take is to get a better version of Randle on the team, which would be a Zion Williamson or Giannis trade (fully realizing that those come with there own risks). Both those guys can make plays for others in the half court and would take Ant off the ball. Ayo at PG may be adequate if we land one of those two.

I think your perception of Ayo mirrors mine, Q, and I will jump on the bandwagon if TC isn't able to bring in a more productive PG. And to Grey's point, he may develop more PG skills if Finchy gives him the reins.

Responding to the chain in one go, but that's the gist of it. If TC is not able to pull off a trade that brings in a PG upgrade and ends up upgrading the PF fit with Randle going out, I won't be too worried about Ayo running the offense if Finch does with him what he did with Ant when he made him the de-facto PG for a season. Fair points about him playing safe, etc. In that situation they should be trying to unlock some play making & aggressiveness in him (especially using his speed) by getting him fully take on the PG role/mindset, not just being a combo guard next to Ant.

Either way at the very least we need to see Randle out and a new PF & a legit ball-handling guard added to the rotation.

I can already hear the groans for this, but if we're being honest.... Sabonis makes a lot of sense on this roster if you move Rudy and Randle (multiple different deals or a multi team deal). I don't know if you get better by doing this ---you almost certainly don't based on impact metrics--- so you're making a big bet on synergy and internal development making up the difference. You also gain cap space swapping Rudy and Randle for Sabonis and could add a wing who can handle the ball, ideally in FA or otherwise.

I'm not saying it's what I would do, but it makes a lot of sense to me on paper given the landscape of options. It's not talked about much because Rudy rarely helped it pay off, but Ant has actually gotten plenty good at reading and making the pocket pass to the short roll, which is why Giannis would make so much sense, but so too would Domontas. Sabonis could also play center next to Naz or Jaden, and move to PF to play next to Beringer. He doesn't take a lot of 3s but he can hit em when he does.

If there is anything that the Knicks have shown us, it's that flawed and overpaid players don't have to be a death sentence if you put the right pieces around them, and of course you also need cap savings elsewhere. Well Jaden, Ant and possibly Naz as a starting PF are all on value contracts.

Again I'm not saying it's ideal, but it's a path forward among an array of fraught trails ahead