Are we going small?!?

[Coolbreeze44]

Hilarious levels of dooming

Ain't dooming if it's imminent.

A year ago it was "we have ballhandlers, Ant can do it." After that failed they went and really corrected that. Now it's ehh we can go small we'll look at it and see, only now they don't have what's necessary to fix that if it fails.

Folks watched Julian Champenie play power forward for a finals team and are bugging out that the wolves are "too small" with 90% of the roster taller than 6'4"

But realize what the Spurs did to address that - draft two 6'-10" players and sign Tobias Harris. The league is going bigger again.

[mjs34]

Ain't dooming if it's imminent.

A year ago it was "we have ballhandlers, Ant can do it." After that failed they went and really corrected that. Now it's ehh we can go small we'll look at it and see, only now they don't have what's necessary to fix that if it fails.

Folks watched Julian Champenie play power forward for a finals team and are bugging out that the wolves are "too small" with 90% of the roster taller than 6'4"

But realize what the Spurs did to address that - draft two 6'-10" players and sign Tobias Harris. The league is going bigger again.

I wanted us to go after Harris. He is older and doesn't do anything great, but he is smart and can play outside and would have given us some added size.

[Q-is-here]

Let me remind the doomers here what Jaden did at PF two seasons ago when Randle and Rudy were out: 20 PPG, 9 RPG, and 3 APG over 6 games including a couple against OKC. My God, he's almost 7-feet tall! We want him closer to the basket and to be able to roam a bit more.

[Coolbreeze44]

Ain't dooming if it's imminent.

A year ago it was "we have ballhandlers, Ant can do it." After that failed they went and really corrected that. Now it's ehh we can go small we'll look at it and see, only now they don't have what's necessary to fix that if it fails.

Folks watched Julian Champenie play power forward for a finals team and are bugging out that the wolves are "too small" with 90% of the roster taller than 6'4"

and lost because OG Anunoby could move Wemby off his spot whenever he wanted.

San Antonio proceeds to draft Quaintance, Reed and Maliq Brown and sign Tobias Harris, so clearly size was something they needed to address.

Building a team designed to hopefully beat the Spurs is admirable, but they have to have a team capable of beating anyone. We had no ballhandlers, so we addressed that, but now we're stuck in a situation where TC is gonna do something he was brought here to do but hasn't done yet: actually develop talent. I shouldn't have to hope Trey Kaufman-Renn becomes a massive anomaly, but we might have to just to have an asset of any kind.

Sorry about that WW, I didn't see your post before I replied with a similar one.

[TheGrey08]

Let me remind the doomers here what Jaden did at PF two seasons ago when Randle and Rudy were out: 20 PPG, 9 RPG, and 3 APG over 6 games including a couple against OKC. My God, he's almost 7-feet tall! We want him closer to the basket and to be able to roam a bit more.

I'm all about Jaden getting minutes at PF. Just don't want them to be locked into it because they have no other choice. If a game/match up is most exploited by him at SF, it would suck if he is locked into PF.

General thread comment. Seeing more talk of teams like the Spurs effectively having SFs playing PF, it has me thinking more in terms of scheme. Think NFL defensive schemes 3-4 vs 4-3. Instead of the standard C, PF, SF, SG, PG, these days some teams still run that, some 1 big, 3 wings and 1 PF, some play 3 guards & 2 forwards, etc. It's interesting how the NBA ebbs and flows over time with this stuff. What the exact answer is idk, but I'd love to see the Wolves mix things up next season and be able to throw quite a few looks at teams.

[AussieWolf3]

Ain't dooming if it's imminent.

A year ago it was "we have ballhandlers, Ant can do it." After that failed they went and really corrected that. Now it's ehh we can go small we'll look at it and see, only now they don't have what's necessary to fix that if it fails.

Folks watched Julian Champenie play power forward for a finals team and are bugging out that the wolves are "too small" with 90% of the roster taller than 6'4"

and lost because OG Anunoby could move Wemby off his spot whenever he wanted.

San Antonio proceeds to draft Quaintance, Reed and Maliq Brown and sign Tobias Harris, so clearly size was something they needed to address.

Building a team designed to hopefully beat the Spurs is admirable, but they have to have a team capable of beating anyone. We had no ballhandlers, so we addressed that, but now we're stuck in a situation where TC is gonna do something he was brought here to do but hasn't done yet: actually develop talent. I shouldn't have to hope Trey Kaufman-Renn becomes a massive anomaly, but we might have to just to have an asset of any kind.

Just a bit disingenuous huh....

So SAS gets credit for the 20th pick and the 44th pick, but the Wolves don't have size after drafting Beringer last year or Renn this year? Both of the picks by the Spurs are shorter than Jaden btw.

Did you care to look up Harris's measurements? He almost exactly the same size as Champenie.

I also wouldn't say the Wolves are currently designing a team to beat the Spurs, there just building a better roster than they have the previous two years. Ball is a significantly better player than Randle, he's also 6'7"

Last....and this shouldn't need to be said, but the Knicks didn't win the finals cause OG just bullied Wemby.... What a ridiculous assertion. Yeah OG put a shoulder into the Frenchmen and got some big boy buckets maybe 3 times over 5 games, sick highlights. It's not why the Spurs lost, and I'm absolutely certain you know that.

We all agree that the Wolves need another big who can shoot, and they have two roster spots available to do that. Yet, you and others act as tho that type of player and an elite point guard have the same value... They don't, we all know that.

We need to clean the basement a bit and people are acting like TC set the house on fire.

[AussieWolf3]

Let me remind the doomers here what Jaden did at PF two seasons ago when Randle and Rudy were out: 20 PPG, 9 RPG, and 3 APG over 6 games including a couple against OKC. My God, he's almost 7-feet tall! We want him closer to the basket and to be able to roam a bit more.

I'm all about Jaden getting minutes at PF. Just don't want them to be locked into it because they have no other choice. If a game/match up is most exploited by him at SF, it would suck if he is locked into PF.

This is exactly how I feel. It's why I brought up Keegan Murray earlier in this thread or maybe a different one, cause I really like the idea of having that sort of redundancy at the two forward spots. Perhaps its possible TJ can graduate into being able to do this, or maybe defensively they're planning to have Ant occupy this responsibility, which would be incredible if you could trust it.... We'll see.

Your best case scenario imo is actually having a backup 4/5 who can play next to Rudy when needed. So you can slide him in at the 4 with Rudy and Jaden on either side or slide him down to 5 with Jaden at the 4. And of course you would have to rotation minutes with other backups as well. And for what it's worth, there is room on the canvas for Joan to fill this space---- it's another question obviously if and when he could do that

[Lipoli390]

I did a deeper dive into Jaden at the PF position. Not surprisingly, it’s a mixed bag - ying and yang. I thought it made sense to start by comparing Jaden physically to the starting PF on the best team in the West, the Spurs. Then I looked at some key comparative metrics with Jaden at the PF position versus SF position last season. Here’s what I found:

PHYSICAL DIMENSION COMPARISON - JULIAN v. JADEN:

Metric Julian Champagnie Jaden McDaniels Physical Advantage
Listed Height 6'7" 6'9" (McDaniels +2 inches)
Barefoot Height. 6'6.25" 6'9.0" (McDaniels +2.75 inches)
Official Weight 212 – 217 lbs 185 lbs (Champagnie +27 to +32 lbs)
Wingspan 6'10.0" 7'0.0" (McDaniels +2 inches)
Standing Reach 8'11.0" 8'11.0" (Tied)

Key Analytical Takeaways:

* The Height Discrepancy: McDaniels is significantly longer than Julian. Analysts regard him as having “the true height of a modern power forward while operating natively as a small forward on the wing …”

* The Weight Contrast: Julian obviously carries significantly more weight than Jaden. Analysts comparing the two refer to Julian having a significantly sturdier, bulkier upper body frame than Jaden. But I think Jaden has put on 10 pounds since his 185 lbs weight at the draft combine and I also think he’s strong for his weight but those are subjective observations.

* Athleticism: Jaden did not participate in the draft combine athletic testing so we don’t have a reliable objective comparative metric for him. Julian’s athletics testing results were very pedestrian and watching Jaden all these years tells me that Jaden is a substantially better athlete.

* Overall: The overall take-away for me is that Jaden has more than enough length to play the PF position but lacks the physical bulk/strength to optimally defend and rebound against many of the League’s PFs in a League where the average weight of PFs is 225-245 pounds.

JADEN’S POSITIONAL METRIC COMPARISON

Performance Metric Small Forward (SF) Lineups Power Forward (PF) Lineups Positional Impact / Advantage
Offensive Rating (Team) 114.2 119.8 (PF Advantage +5.6)
True Shooting % (TS%) 56.4% 63.5% (PF Advantage +7.1%)
Rebound Rate 11.4% 7.8% (SF Advantage +3.6%)
Defensive Rating (Team) 111.4 115.8 (SF Advantage -4.4)
Block Percentage 2.1% 3.4% (PF Advantage +1.3%)

Key Take-Aways:

I think there’s one key take-away from this positional comparison. When playing PF, Jaden’s and the team’s offensive metrics went up but Jaden’s and the team’s defense and rebounding went down.

OVERALL TAKE

So what can we conclude overall from from these metrics? I don’t think the objective metrics lead to a definitive conclusion, which leaves us and the Wolves with subjective judgment. My view is that we should acquire a starting PF who can defend and rebound inside at a level that Jaden can’t at the PF position and keep Jaden primarily at the SF spot where he can dominate on both sides of the ball consistently, but only if we can get a PF good enough to be a net plus for the team overall. So the issue isn’t just optimizing Jaden it’s ensuring that all five starters are at a high enough level to optimize the team’s ability to win over the course of the entire season and in the playoffs. That means, we can’t be on the hunt for any starting PF; it has to be the right one and that will be very difficult given our current financial and transactional constraints.

I see only three possible starting PFs the Wolves MIGHT be able to get:

1. LeBron James as a free agent on a vet minimum contract — unlikely but possible
2. PJ Washington in trade with Mavs — Would likely require parting with either TSJ or Donte, but more likely TSJ
3. Rui as a free agent on a one-year vet minimum

If we can’t find the right starting PF, I think we can sign a potential rotational PF off the bench who we can go to situationally when matchups require more size and rebounding at that position. A couple possible vet minimum options for that role are Guerschon Yabusele and Jeremy Sochan. Guerschon has some offensive game but Sochan has more mobility and is probably the better defender/rebounder of the two. Another option would be Kevin Love whose defense is suspect but who remains a very good rebounder and perimeter shooter.

[TheGrey08]

Nice break down, Lip. Glad we finally have a depth PF signing in Lyles so it's not just a hole.

[Lipoli390]

Nice break down, Lip. Glad we finally have a depth PF signing in Lyles so it's not just a hole.

Trey Lyles never crossed my mind. Like so many of TC’s moves this one came out of nowhere. But if I had been thinking of Trey he would have been on my list of solid possible rotational bigs off the bench to sign at the vet minimum. This was a nice marginal signing.