Idk Kyler looked pretty good in this game. It's a game where if you believe at all in him is why you would or should. He ran himself into 1 sack in the first half but was pretty good after that. Remember he playing with TEs that were barely supposed to play this season and those guys looked pretty good.
I'm loving this team. It's like a throwback to when I was a kid in some ways. Hey they are running the ball. I love watching the defense. I saw on Twitter that he Vikings have allowed 12 yards rushing in the 4th quarter...all season.
Unless Kyler plays worse and we lose a couple then I cannot see us making a change. The blowback or potential blowback on KOC and Tease would be huge. If we drop a couple and Kyler stinks like he did to start the year, then I can see it happening. But I think we are "stuck" with Kyler, good or bad as of now for sure.
And KOC does seem to be adjusting better playcalls and designs for Kyler. I still question, can we win a SB with Kyler? Forget the podcast I watched, but it was a national type and they definitvely said no. I agree also, unless you can maximize his strengths and try to hide his weaknesses.
You know I did hate him staring at the rush too in that first half. Reminded me of Ponder, who would get rattled and take his eyes off the field and stare at the rushers. Sure it's a hard job, but you just got to feel where to go and move there and make plays.
Let's be honest no QB was likely leading us to the Superbowl.
Comparing Ponder and Murray...I get you are trying to make a point but the comparison is laughable. Ponder's pocket presence was terrible and he didn't have a good enough arm to bail him out. I remember Souchan talk about how bad he was in this regard and then watched the next game and I was like ok Souchan was right. Lol teddy didn't have a great arm but he had a good presence about him. Murray is an elite athlete and obviously his size likely causes problems but he can find ways to overcome that...and the team around him can too. Olineman need to learn how to pass block for various QBs. It takes time to figure it all out. How much will it come together?
Murray isn't a first ballot HOF. Kirk Cousins isn't either. Sam Darnold probably won't be. Keep in mind the reason why Darnold signed for a realitively cheap short term contract with Seattle. He looked bad in those last 2 games. Let's also remember that early in the Superbowl he had some bad throws. He survived that and made plays as the game went on but he isn't a top 10 QB of his generation or anything. The RB was the MVP of that game. We are talking about good QBs with some really good positives and some weaknesses. They need the right OC and stuff around them to get the most out of them. Murray isn't a QB that's gonna hit the ground running and just beat you with his arm chucking the ball all over the place. Maybe at some point he might get there but it might not be till next season. Until then (if he even returns next year) can he do enough with his strengths (gotta stay healthy and on the field) to help the offense move the ball And make big plays? His mobility is a pretty big deal. That was a big deal for Darnold and was very underrated by many when he signed. Apparently Murray still has some serious speed too.
To me the real key to the offense is the oline. If that can be stabilized then we have a chance to be pretty good. If not it won't matter. Huber looks like he might be able to fill in for Jackson and be plenty solid. That would be big. I also worry a little that the defense won't be as good 10 weeks from now but there is young guys that could get better and vets that could get better in the system including Harrison Smith able to play as many snaps as needed. What other injuries will the team have? Will they trade juaun jennings? Will they make a trade at the deadline for a needed player?
I was just saying that a couple plays Kyler looked like Ponder (staring at the rushers). Also comparing Kirk, Sam and Kyler. To me the first two are obviously much better throwers downfield and overall passers. Kyler does have his legs though and is accurate short, but he'll will need to use them legs the rest of the year if we're going to have any chance to do anything substantial. I just don't see the offense being good enough with him as a pocket passer. Even with the number 1 defense!!!
I think eventually great teams will score on us, I just see it as inevitable at some point we'll have to be scoring 20+ points against good defenses. Tough ask I think.
I think you're right too, any chance we will have, the oline will need to play well. Got to run the ball effectively and limit dropping back a bunch.
Unless Kyler plays worse and we lose a couple then I cannot see us making a change. The blowback or potential blowback on KOC and Tease would be huge. If we drop a couple and Kyler stinks like he did to start the year, then I can see it happening. But I think we are "stuck" with Kyler, good or bad as of now for sure.
And KOC does seem to be adjusting better playcalls and designs for Kyler. I still question, can we win a SB with Kyler? Forget the podcast I watched, but it was a national type and they definitvely said no. I agree also, unless you can maximize his strengths and try to hide his weaknesses.
You know I did hate him staring at the rush too in that first half. Reminded me of Ponder, who would get rattled and take his eyes off the field and stare at the rushers. Sure it's a hard job, but you just got to feel where to go and move there and make plays.
Let's be honest no QB was likely leading us to the Superbowl.
Comparing Ponder and Murray...I get you are trying to make a point but the comparison is laughable. Ponder's pocket presence was terrible and he didn't have a good enough arm to bail him out. I remember Souchan talk about how bad he was in this regard and then watched the next game and I was like ok Souchan was right. Lol teddy didn't have a great arm but he had a good presence about him. Murray is an elite athlete and obviously his size likely causes problems but he can find ways to overcome that...and the team around him can too. Olineman need to learn how to pass block for various QBs. It takes time to figure it all out. How much will it come together?
Murray isn't a first ballot HOF. Kirk Cousins isn't either. Sam Darnold probably won't be. Keep in mind the reason why Darnold signed for a realitively cheap short term contract with Seattle. He looked bad in those last 2 games. Let's also remember that early in the Superbowl he had some bad throws. He survived that and made plays as the game went on but he isn't a top 10 QB of his generation or anything. The RB was the MVP of that game. We are talking about good QBs with some really good positives and some weaknesses. They need the right OC and stuff around them to get the most out of them. Murray isn't a QB that's gonna hit the ground running and just beat you with his arm chucking the ball all over the place. Maybe at some point he might get there but it might not be till next season. Until then (if he even returns next year) can he do enough with his strengths (gotta stay healthy and on the field) to help the offense move the ball And make big plays? His mobility is a pretty big deal. That was a big deal for Darnold and was very underrated by many when he signed. Apparently Murray still has some serious speed too.
To me the real key to the offense is the oline. If that can be stabilized then we have a chance to be pretty good. If not it won't matter. Huber looks like he might be able to fill in for Jackson and be plenty solid. That would be big. I also worry a little that the defense won't be as good 10 weeks from now but there is young guys that could get better and vets that could get better in the system including Harrison Smith able to play as many snaps as needed. What other injuries will the team have? Will they trade juaun jennings? Will they make a trade at the deadline for a needed player?
I was just saying that a couple plays Kyler looked like Ponder (staring at the rushers). Also comparing Kirk, Sam and Kyler. To me the first two are obviously much better throwers downfield and overall passers. Kyler does have his legs though and is accurate short, but he'll will need to use them legs the rest of the year if we're going to have any chance to do anything substantial. I just don't see the offense being good enough with him as a pocket passer. Even with the number 1 defense!!!
I think eventually great teams will score on us, I just see it as inevitable at some point we'll have to be scoring 20+ points against good defenses. Tough ask I think.
I think you're right too, any chance we will have, the oline will need to play well. Got to run the ball effectively and limit dropping back a bunch.
What was your take on Sam Darnold before he joined the Vikings?
Let's be honest no QB was likely leading us to the Superbowl.
Comparing Ponder and Murray...I get you are trying to make a point but the comparison is laughable. Ponder's pocket presence was terrible and he didn't have a good enough arm to bail him out. I remember Souchan talk about how bad he was in this regard and then watched the next game and I was like ok Souchan was right. Lol teddy didn't have a great arm but he had a good presence about him. Murray is an elite athlete and obviously his size likely causes problems but he can find ways to overcome that...and the team around him can too. Olineman need to learn how to pass block for various QBs. It takes time to figure it all out. How much will it come together?
Murray isn't a first ballot HOF. Kirk Cousins isn't either. Sam Darnold probably won't be. Keep in mind the reason why Darnold signed for a realitively cheap short term contract with Seattle. He looked bad in those last 2 games. Let's also remember that early in the Superbowl he had some bad throws. He survived that and made plays as the game went on but he isn't a top 10 QB of his generation or anything. The RB was the MVP of that game. We are talking about good QBs with some really good positives and some weaknesses. They need the right OC and stuff around them to get the most out of them. Murray isn't a QB that's gonna hit the ground running and just beat you with his arm chucking the ball all over the place. Maybe at some point he might get there but it might not be till next season. Until then (if he even returns next year) can he do enough with his strengths (gotta stay healthy and on the field) to help the offense move the ball And make big plays? His mobility is a pretty big deal. That was a big deal for Darnold and was very underrated by many when he signed. Apparently Murray still has some serious speed too.
To me the real key to the offense is the oline. If that can be stabilized then we have a chance to be pretty good. If not it won't matter. Huber looks like he might be able to fill in for Jackson and be plenty solid. That would be big. I also worry a little that the defense won't be as good 10 weeks from now but there is young guys that could get better and vets that could get better in the system including Harrison Smith able to play as many snaps as needed. What other injuries will the team have? Will they trade juaun jennings? Will they make a trade at the deadline for a needed player?
I was just saying that a couple plays Kyler looked like Ponder (staring at the rushers). Also comparing Kirk, Sam and Kyler. To me the first two are obviously much better throwers downfield and overall passers. Kyler does have his legs though and is accurate short, but he'll will need to use them legs the rest of the year if we're going to have any chance to do anything substantial. I just don't see the offense being good enough with him as a pocket passer. Even with the number 1 defense!!!
I think eventually great teams will score on us, I just see it as inevitable at some point we'll have to be scoring 20+ points against good defenses. Tough ask I think.
I think you're right too, any chance we will have, the oline will need to play well. Got to run the ball effectively and limit dropping back a bunch.
What was your take on Sam Darnold before he joined the Vikings?
I liked the signing as a backup/potential spot starter. I was never fully bought in that year though (14-3). He looked too panicky too often in the pocket and KOC was airing it out too much to be effective (for a panicky QB). In the end, he obviously turned back into himself collapsing against the Lions and Rams. KOC tried airing it out and did so even more as we got down in the game. It just snowballed.
Give Sam credit though for winning a SB, he played pretty well in that game. Though still, he's not a top tier QB obviously. Great arm, accurate, but he panics still too much and throws dumb passes (from my limited highlights of the Hags). The Hags used him perfectly with an elite defense and a great running game to go win it all.
Sam still contributed at times for sure, but wasn't asked to carry too much load of the offense like KOC tried. If he stays here, things might end badly. WHo knows. Situation matters.
I was just saying that a couple plays Kyler looked like Ponder (staring at the rushers). Also comparing Kirk, Sam and Kyler. To me the first two are obviously much better throwers downfield and overall passers. Kyler does have his legs though and is accurate short, but he'll will need to use them legs the rest of the year if we're going to have any chance to do anything substantial. I just don't see the offense being good enough with him as a pocket passer. Even with the number 1 defense!!!
I think eventually great teams will score on us, I just see it as inevitable at some point we'll have to be scoring 20+ points against good defenses. Tough ask I think.
I think you're right too, any chance we will have, the oline will need to play well. Got to run the ball effectively and limit dropping back a bunch.
What was your take on Sam Darnold before he joined the Vikings?
I liked the signing as a backup/potential spot starter. I was never fully bought in that year though (14-3). He looked too panicky too often in the pocket and KOC was airing it out too much to be effective (for a panicky QB). In the end, he obviously turned back into himself collapsing against the Lions and Rams. KOC tried airing it out and did so even more as we got down in the game. It just snowballed.
Give Sam credit though for winning a SB, he played pretty well in that game. Though still, he's not a top tier QB obviously. Great arm, accurate, but he panics still too much and throws dumb passes (from my limited highlights of the Hags). The Hags used him perfectly with an elite defense and a great running game to go win it all.
Sam still contributed at times for sure, but wasn't asked to carry too much load of the offense like KOC tried. If he stays here, things might end badly. WHo knows. Situation matters.
So you didn't see Darnold becoming a legit starting QB in the league under KOC? Personally I was not surprised. He had been building towards possible success for a couple years including some success in Carolina. It was an excellent signing by all the Vikings folks that made that move. I bring that up because for all his flaws Murray is significantly more accomplished than Darnold and is being paid even less. There should be some sort of reasonable path towards success here this season (if he can stay healthy). Beyond that idk like I said in the other thread let's just let it play out and maybe have some level of reasonable hope for some good things. I know you won't get carried away and I'm not going to either even if Murray kills it for 5-7 weeks straight. It's perfectly reasonable to have skeptism about Murray or Darnold or Daniel Jones or even Cousins if he was here...and definitely McCarthy if he was starting...and obviously Wentz too...
Although what a fun story it would be if Wentz ended up stepping in and doing just enough to win it all...(Assuming the defense was unbelievable) after having Foles do that for the Eagles and this being is hometown team. No I don't think it will happen but Wentz has been in the system for over a year and has some game and also has size. He might be capable of managing being aggressive and playing it safe as a vet. Again super duper unlikely but a little bit fun to think about. Anyways back to the daily grind of work. Lol
What was your take on Sam Darnold before he joined the Vikings?
I liked the signing as a backup/potential spot starter. I was never fully bought in that year though (14-3). He looked too panicky too often in the pocket and KOC was airing it out too much to be effective (for a panicky QB). In the end, he obviously turned back into himself collapsing against the Lions and Rams. KOC tried airing it out and did so even more as we got down in the game. It just snowballed.
Give Sam credit though for winning a SB, he played pretty well in that game. Though still, he's not a top tier QB obviously. Great arm, accurate, but he panics still too much and throws dumb passes (from my limited highlights of the Hags). The Hags used him perfectly with an elite defense and a great running game to go win it all.
Sam still contributed at times for sure, but wasn't asked to carry too much load of the offense like KOC tried. If he stays here, things might end badly. WHo knows. Situation matters.
So you didn't see Darnold becoming a legit starting QB in the league under KOC? Personally I was not surprised. He had been building towards possible success for a couple years including some success in Carolina. It was an excellent signing by all the Vikings folks that made that move. I bring that up because for all his flaws Murray is significantly more accomplished than Darnold and is being paid even less. There should be some sort of reasonable path towards success here this season (if he can stay healthy). Beyond that idk like I said in the other thread let's just let it play out and maybe have some level of reasonable hope for some good things. I know you won't get carried away and I'm not going to either even if Murray kills it for 5-7 weeks straight. It's perfectly reasonable to have skeptism about Murray or Darnold or Daniel Jones or even Cousins if he was here...and definitely McCarthy if he was starting...and obviously Wentz too...
Although what a fun story it would be if Wentz ended up stepping in and doing just enough to win it all...(Assuming the defense was unbelievable) after having Foles do that for the Eagles and this being is hometown team. No I don't think it will happen but Wentz has been in the system for over a year and has some game and also has size. He might be capable of managing being aggressive and playing it safe as a vet. Again super duper unlikely but a little bit fun to think about. Anyways back to the daily grind of work. Lol
I guess my point in the other thread was yeah, we can basically get the same type of offensive production from Wentz, heck maybe JJ if he stayed here. Why go all in on Murray when he's not proven over his career to be much if any better then a good backup?
The other thing to consider is Tease was brought in after Murray was signed, so he has zero ties to him longterm.
I think for me, bottom line is we need to win a SB with Murray then I would consider resigning him. Heck who cares then, give him what he wants. If you cant do it with this defense and special teams with weapons on offense. How will you do it when things likely get worse. It's very rare to have a top defense multiple years in a row. Usually they pop up then probably fall back to 5-10 range (hopefully we stay great but who knows).
I think you either go and get the next cheap recycled guy (or two) and there will be some, or you try and get a guy like Herbert who might be available considering his age, the Chargers record and his lack of overall winning. He would be the ideal KOC type of QB.
