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Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:53 am
by kekgeek
Camden0916 wrote:I've been kicking around the idea of the Wolves acquiring Harrison Barnes from Sacramento near the deadline. He fits the long, athletic, switchable player prototype that much of Minnesota's personnel has going for them. He can capably play both forward spots while offering defensive prowess, solid rebounding production, shot-creation, and reliable perimeter shooting. He's also under contract next year making just over $18-million at 30-years old, which looks to be a bargain at this point.
I can also envision Barnes in multiple lineup combinations for the Wolves that work really well in theory. Consider a five-man starting unit of Patrick Beverley, D'Angelo Russell, Anthony Edwards, Barnes, and Karl-Anthony Towns. Or consider Russell, Edwards, Barnes, Jarred Vanderbilt, and Towns. There's some real potential to cause even more problems for other teams there.
Barnes won't come cheap, however, so the Wolves brass would have to be willing to part with some attractive -- but not untouchable -- pieces. Here's what I'd propose.
Minnesota:
- Harrison Barnes ($18.4M in 2022-23)
- Alex Len ($3.9M in 2022-23)
= $24.0M salary match
Sacramento:
- Malik Beasley ($15.6M in 2022-23, $16.5M TO in 2023-24)
- Taurean Prince (expiring contract)
- 2022 first-round pick (top-16 protected)
= $27.5M salary match
Minnesota pays the price for what will likely be one of the hottest wing options on the trade market this year. Barnes offers two-way productivity and versatility that neither Beasley nor Prince can provide. Additionally, the Wolves acquire a capable big in Len that can spell Towns and Naz Reid with quality minutes. They also free up roughly $3.5M that can be used to take back more money in a different trade, or to sign a free agent that gets waived/bought out later in the season. The first-round pick would be top-16 protected this year, which essentially means Minnesota only loses the pick if they advance past the play-in tournament. I think that's something I could live with. This trade isn't necessarily splashy like a Ben Simmons deal would be, but I think it accomplishes a lot for the Wolves.
No thank you from me. Completely understand where you are coming from. Just me personally, I don't like trading future protected 1sts for guys that don't move the Wolves to a different tier.
Want to have the chamber loaded to be able to trade picks in the future to get a player that moves the Wolves into that Suns and Warriors tier if they make a trade.
Only like trading picks for above average role players on draft night.
So I think your trade makes the Wolves better but doesn't move the needle enough for me to trade a protected future 1st. Eliminating the Wolves ability to not be able to trade a 1st until 2025 (assuming the protection is a 1 year carry over that becomes 2 2nds)
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:24 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
That's fair, kek, and I can see where you're coming from. I have two questions for you though after reading your take and letting it sink in.
Do you think it's likely/probable that the Wolves would advance in the play-in tournament, or achieve the sixth-seed or better after this trade? I certainly do. I think they're in that mix as it stands now, but upgrading to Harrison Barnes would give them additional juice. Barnes is significantly better than Malik Beasley, in my opinion, and the Wolves would clearly be better with him as their fourth-best player. The wing rotation, especially, would get a boost and make Minnesota really tough to match up with. Anyways, if the Wolves wind up being a playoff team, then the pick conveys to Sacramento, which means there are no future protections hindering Minnesota's ability to make the type of trade you're referring to.
My second question is what makes this trade much different than trading a first for Luke Kennard on draft night, for example? Well, other than Barnes being an above average starter, of course. The only difference as I see it is that trading a pick during the season requires some risk assessment because you can't guarantee where you're slotted, but wouldn't Barnes be worth a mid-late first anyways? Again, I think it comes down to whether you think the Wolves make the postseason after this trade or not.
And if the Wolves failed to make the playoffs after this trade, then I fear the team won't be in the hunt for a marquee player anyways as they'll probably be shuffling more players out to retool/rebuild. Minnesota could even flip Barnes on draft night to recoup said asset. He'd probably have to bottom out for the rest of the season or get injured to lose value like that before draft night.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 pm
by kekgeek
Camden wrote:That's fair, kek, and I can see where you're coming from. I have two questions for you though after reading your take and letting it sink in.
Do you think it's likely/probable that the Wolves would advance in the play-in tournament, or achieve the sixth-seed or better after this trade? I certainly do. I think they're in that mix as it stands now, but upgrading to Harrison Barnes would give them additional juice. Barnes is significantly better than Malik Beasley, in my opinion, and the Wolves would clearly be better with him as their fourth-best player. The wing rotation, especially, would get a boost and make Minnesota really tough to match up with. Anyways, if the Wolves wind up being a playoff team, then the pick conveys to Sacramento, which means there are no future protections hindering Minnesota's ability to make the type of trade you're referring to.
My second question is what makes this trade much different than trading a first for Luke Kennard on draft night, for example? Well, other than Barnes being an above average starter, of course. The only difference as I see it is that trading a pick during the season requires some risk assessment because you can't guarantee where you're slotted, but wouldn't Barnes be worth a mid-late first anyways? Again, I think it comes down to whether you think the Wolves make the postseason after this trade or not.
And if the Wolves failed to make the playoffs after this trade, then I fear the team won't be in the hunt for a marquee player anyways as they'll probably be shuffling more players out to retool/rebuild. Minnesota could even flip Barnes on draft night to recoup said asset. He'd probably have to bottom out for the rest of the season or get injured to lose value like that before draft night.
I think the trade makes the Wolves better but here is my thing. I actually consider the Wolves in the tier of making the top 6 right now without the trade. With the injuries to the Nuggets, Ja now going to miss at least a month, the Blazers are struggling to get stops again and the Lakers, Clippers and Mavs inconsistencies. I just don't think adding Barnes 100% puts us over those last 3 teams that I mentioned, even though I think it would makes the Wolves better. Also how does that effect the Wolves players going forward adding a player like Barnes. That means Vando goes to the bench and I think what has made our starters so good is Vando has been almost the perfect complementary piece to our big 3.
The reason why I like draft day trades is the locking up of future assets. If they did the exact same trade you are suggesting on draft day with whatever pick the Wolves got they don't lock up future draft capital and could trade their pick next year after the selection is made in 2022. If they did your proposed trade now. The Wolves could not trade a 1st round pick until 2025 or until that pick is traded over. Also on draft night you can see if a prospect you really like falls to you.
In the end I don't hate your trade I just want all the assets avaliable to me going forward. I don't think the trade makes us a lock at the top 6 (It does help it) and I think the wolves can make the top 6 anyways. Barnes also does not make the Wolves a tier 1 West team in my opinion. Also I want the draft assets going forward because the Wolves have a lot of interesting decisions in the future coming up. Resigning Pat Bev, Naz pay day incoming, Beasley becoming and expiring, Dlo extension eligible this offseason. (I will make a bigger post about this later tonight or tomorrow). So I just want all the Wolves trade assets at the disposal to make a trade to get us into tier 1 if our players continue to progress.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:06 pm
by Jester1534
I think Christian Wood would be a good option. Would Prince (expiring) and two first round picks be enough to get him?
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:56 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
jester1534 wrote:I think Christian Wood would be a good option. Would Prince (expiring) and two first round picks be enough to get him?
I really like Christian Wood too, jester, but I've softened my desire for the Wolves to trade for him since the start of the season. I think your proposal is a fair one, but not one I'd like for Minnesota at this time. I think Naz Reid provides similar elements as Wood albeit at a lower level of production, and Jarred Vanderbilt's ascension makes him a better fit with the little-big three that Minnesota has established.
That's why I'd prefer Harrison Barnes because he can provide something no one else on the roster can -- two-way ability at the forward positions. Every wing/forward option the Wolves currently have are essentially one-way players. Jarred Vanderbilt, Jaden McDaniels, and Josh Okogie are primarily defensive players whereas Malik Beasley and Taurean Prince, shooting woes aside, are predominantly offensive players. Anthony Edwards can play both ways, but this team would be so much more dangerous to have a two-way wing next to him in some capacity. That's basically what McDaniels was supposed to be albeit on a much lesser level.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:55 pm
by KiwiMatt
One things for sure we need another big body. Someone with genuine front court size. We still have an open roster spot to utilise so I'd like to see us sign BPA free agent or trade a 2nd round pick for a guys like Moses Brown or Ian Hartenstein (who we should have signed anyways). We could also trade Jake Layman and his expiring contract to fill this void.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:07 am
by Wolvesfan21
The Wolves are going backwards and it's concerning.
Would Philly take DLO for Simmons swap now or when he gets back healthy? He has been statistically playing much better, but also slumping as a shooter.
The thing is I don't really trust this new DLO is a guy I want to build around long term. Is he going to start shooting better while also playing solidly on defense? Does he revert back to half ass DLO next season after he extends a big contract?
Does the current trio or team progress enough to be a contender in several years?
I guess we can wait and see what happens when he gets back then reassess.
I guess I'm not convinced either DLO or KAT are going to be NBA Champions without substantial other help.
KAT is also not stepping up this season. In fact it feels like he has taken a step back a bit as far as leadership, his fouling and bitching at the refs, less than stellar effort in games as well.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:38 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
I'm not sure how we can watch the Wolves play without D'Angelo Russell for a handful of games and think that the solution is to trade him. If anything, I would have expected more fans to realize just how valuable he is to the team.
I also think this team needs more perimeter threats, not less. Ben Simmons is a super-talented, proven star player, but the problems Minnesota has are even more significant if you acquire him while moving Russell, and that's while acknowledging the latter's uncharacteristically poor shooting.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:57 am
by Wolvesfan21
Camden wrote:I'm not sure how we can watch the Wolves play without D'Angelo Russell for a handful of games and think that the solution is to trade him. If anything, I would have expected more fans to realize just how valuable he is to the team.
I also think this team needs more perimeter threats, not less. Ben Simmons is a super-talented, proven star player, but the problems Minnesota has are even more significant if you acquire him while moving Russell, and that's while acknowledging the latter's uncharacteristically poor shooting.
Simmons is also an elite distributor and scorer in the paint. Yeah sure we all will knock his lack of 3P shooting but he does all the other things along with playing elite defense.
I'll take the upgrade in defense and not to mention, DLO isn't even hitting 3P shots at a good clip, so you basically are getting much better on defense, and trading 3P shots for paint 2P's. That's a wash on offense.
We can win with Simmons, it's an upgrade. He's the better player.
Re: If not Simmons, who do we trade for?
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
WolvesFan21 wrote:Camden wrote:I'm not sure how we can watch the Wolves play without D'Angelo Russell for a handful of games and think that the solution is to trade him. If anything, I would have expected more fans to realize just how valuable he is to the team.
I also think this team needs more perimeter threats, not less. Ben Simmons is a super-talented, proven star player, but the problems Minnesota has are even more significant if you acquire him while moving Russell, and that's while acknowledging the latter's uncharacteristically poor shooting.
Simmons is also an elite distributor and scorer in the paint. Yeah sure we all will knock his lack of 3P shooting but he does all the other things along with playing elite defense.
I'll take the upgrade in defense and not to mention, DLO isn't even hitting 3P shots at a good clip, so you basically are getting much better on defense, and trading 3P shots for paint 2P's. That's a wash on offense.
We can win with Simmons, it's an upgrade. He's the better player.
Ben Simmons is the better player, absolutely, but does he make the team significantly better once you take D'Angelo Russell off? I don't think so.
That Wolves team would look like a roster from the 70's. Even though D-Lo hasn't been shooting it particularly well, opposing defenses still have to respect his shot. They have to play him like the shot-maker he's been the last handful of years. That just won't happen with Simmons. There would be even more traffic in the paint, which makes the game that much more difficult for Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards. Also, who do you give the ball to on that team when you need a bucket? Simmons can't (won't) create much for himself. Towns needs an entry pass or some sort of action prior to the catch. Edwards is far too inefficient and predictable to be given that responsibility as a 20-year old. Minnesota would be in the same position Philadelphia was in by needing that high level combo guard next to Simmons. Lastly, I'm not sure you can play many lineups with Simmons and Jarred Vanderbilt on the court so we'd essentially be minimizing our gains with Vando by relegating him to a lesser role.
I've long thought that you acquire Simmons to put him around the Wolves little-big three because he compliments their games extremely well. Once you remove one in order to make that happen, the fit just isn't as attractive and more problems are created. And that's without mentioning that Philadelphia would want Russell plus more assets. It's a no from me. The Wolves have other simpler needs that they should be interested in fixing.