Wiseman at #1

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Who told you guys that James Wiseman can't shoot? That he was an old-fashioned big? I'm seeing some odd takes on here lately.

IDK, what was his 3P percentage in HS and college? I got him making 8/16 in AAU ball? Zero attempts in 3 games at Memphis. I said can he shoot from range, especially NBA 3P range?

Can he defend NBA guards off the pick? If he can be more then a traditional 5 then sure. I just don't know.

But Cam do we have any proof that he can shoot. Was 0/1 from 3 in college. Shot 8/16 in just over a attempt per game in AAU, he was 0/5 in HS all star games and playing for team USA. I can't find his HS shooting stats.

He shot a grand total of 4 shots outside the paint in the half court at Memphis and went 2/4.

That is to go with red flags of saying he has no handle, very poor shot selection in AAU and then even though he has all the tools to be an elite defender he gets lost on that end.

I hope he turns into the player you suggest in the defense of Gobert, post game embiid, shot of bosh and elite NBA athleticism

This is why there's value in watching these guys when they're in high school and during their time in FIBA play. You don't always get the full picture of a player's capabilities when they're in college due to system, supporting cast, etc.

Hell, Karl-Anthony Towns was 2-8 from three at Kentucky and he's without question the best shooting big man in the history of the game. I'm not saying Wiseman is that, but watch enough of him and you will see that he can stroke it.

[thedoper]

Wasn't Wiseman a really bad FT shooter in HS? I have only read a little but I thought I saw somewhere that he shot around 50% from the line in multiple HS tournaments. His AAU stats show 58%. That doesn't really make me confident in his future abilities as a shooter.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We've seen other bigs with zero outside game turn into very solid 3-point shooters over time (Brook Lopez, Al Horford, Marc Gasol to name a few).

It's just super hard to project these bigs because of the role they played prior to the NBA and the fact that a lot of their impact comes with learning the nuances of positioning, setting screens, and using their length to impact plays without fouling. A ton of this stuff isn't really picked up until they turn pro.

He has all the physical tools to be elite. Is he a student of the game? Is he coachable? Does he love to play? How high is his basketball IQ? Did he show growth as an AAU player?

KAT ended up becoming almost the opposite of what some of us thought he'd be, in that he's on his way to being one of the all time great offensive bigs, yet still doesn't grasp some of the basics of defense despite coming out of Kentucky with high hopes in this area.

[kekgeek]

Who told you guys that James Wiseman can't shoot? That he was an old-fashioned big? I'm seeing some odd takes on here lately.

IDK, what was his 3P percentage in HS and college? I got him making 8/16 in AAU ball? Zero attempts in 3 games at Memphis. I said can he shoot from range, especially NBA 3P range?

Can he defend NBA guards off the pick? If he can be more then a traditional 5 then sure. I just don't know.

But Cam do we have any proof that he can shoot. Was 0/1 from 3 in college. Shot 8/16 in just over a attempt per game in AAU, he was 0/5 in HS all star games and playing for team USA. I can't find his HS shooting stats.

He shot a grand total of 4 shots outside the paint in the half court at Memphis and went 2/4.

That is to go with red flags of saying he has no handle, very poor shot selection in AAU and then even though he has all the tools to be an elite defender he gets lost on that end.

I hope he turns into the player you suggest in the defense of Gobert, post game embiid, shot of bosh and elite NBA athleticism

This is why there's value in watching these guys when they're in high school and during their time in FIBA play. You don't always get the full picture of a player's capabilities when they're in college due to system, supporting cast, etc.

Hell, Karl-Anthony Towns was 2-8 from three at Kentucky and he's without question the best shooting big man in the history of the game. I'm not saying Wiseman is that, but watch enough of him and you will see that he can stroke it.

I knew you would bring up KAT and his college shooting. Big difference though in Kat's freshman, sophomore and junior (I can't find his senior stats) Kat made over 100 3s in his 1st 3 years. Including over 60 3s his freshman. Legit big signs on Kat the shooter.

I can't find Wiseman stats so I got nothing to go off of

[Wolvesfan21]

KAT had a very solid FT percentage I believe, I'm just going off memory but I believe it was over 80%. I remember debating KAT versus everyone else and I was all in on KAT. Okafor was some peoples pick, but he reminded of an Al Jefferson at best. I liked Porzingis too.

I'm not saying Wiseman couldn't become a good to great shooter, we simply are lacking the stats to back it up. It's just another question mark in my book.

I like his potential just like Edwards really. They both have question marks and for me to make a decision I would need to dig much deeper, watch their upcoming workouts and listen to their interviews. Watch all their HS game film, etc.

The biggest question to for me is their mentality. Are they uber competitive? Do they play at or near 100% effort? Are they gym rats willing to do anything to get better? Give me the guy who ticks these boxes.

[Lipoli390]

We've seen other bigs with zero outside game turn into very solid 3-point shooters over time (Brook Lopez, Al Horford, Marc Gasol to name a few).

It's just super hard to project these bigs because of the role they played prior to the NBA and the fact that a lot of their impact comes with learning the nuances of positioning, setting screens, and using their length to impact plays without fouling. A ton of this stuff isn't really picked up until they turn pro.

He has all the physical tools to be elite. Is he a student of the game? Is he coachable? Does he love to play? How high is his basketball IQ? Did he show growth as an AAU player?

KAT ended up becoming almost the opposite of what some of us thought he'd be, in that he's on his way to being one of the all time great offensive bigs, yet still doesn't grasp some of the basics of defense despite coming out of Kentucky with high hopes in this area.

That's right, Q. Towns had terrific shot-blocking stats in college on a 36-minute basis and was expected to be a very good defender. What we've seen is that he has very poor defensive instincts and, as a result, he's neither a rim protector or a good defender thus far in his NBA career. In fact, he's a poor defender. As you noted, you have to look behind the curtain at factors like basketball IQ, passion for the game, competitiveness, coachability and work ethic to assess a player's NBA potential and even then you can get it wrong. We have very little insight into these behind-the-curtain factors. We have to assume that the Wolves front office has a lot more information and is capable of analyzing that information effectively. With only so much information to go on, I'm alarmed by any reports that question a draft prospect's basketball IQ/instincts, passion for the game, motor, etc. More often than not, draft prospects with public reports questioning them in those areas tend to underachieve as NBA players.

Unfortunately for the Wolves, all three top prospects in this draft have had questions raised about their motor, passion for the game and/or basketball IQ. In contrast, neither Zion nor Ja had any such questions raised in connection with them leading up to last year's draft. If those two were in this year's draft, the only debate for the Wolves would be whether to draft Zion or Ja and with Russell here the choice would probably be Zion - although I've always had concerns about his ability to stay healthy given how he plays with the weight he carries.

So I remain in the trade-down camp. But as Cam has pointed out, whether the Wolves should trade down depends on who the Wolves are able to get with the lower draft pick and what other assets they receive in return. But it's a tough call.

This is the first draft in a while where I don't have a clear sense of who I'd want the Wolves to take with the #1 pick in the draft.

Last year I would have wanted the Wolves to take Ja Morant at #1, but would have been very happy with Zion. I had no doubt about those two as the right picks at 1 and 2 and I thought Ja was the better fit for the Wolves and had less injury risk.

In 2018, I wasn't as certain about the top pick as I was last year. I would have been torn between Doncic and Jaren Jackson at #1.

In 2017 I would have wanted the Wolves to take Lonzo Ball at #1. I sure got that one wrong. Lesson learned? Shooting matters.

In 2016, I had no doubt Simmons at #1. My next two favorites in that draft were Hield and Murray and I was torn between those two as the right picks for the Wolves at #5.

In 2015 I had no doubt that KAT should be the #1 pick. Thankfully, Flip got that one right.

In 2014, I was torn like I am today about the top pick. I was concerned about the motor issues surrounding Wiggins and the injury concerns surrounding Embiid. But I was also concerned about Parker's prior knee surgery. Those three players were the near consensus top three talents in that draft. So it sort of resembled this year's draft in that sense. By draft night, I was set on Parker as the best pick at #1. Obviously, in hindsight I was wrong.

In 2013 my unequivocal pick at #1 was Oladipo while McCollum was my pick for the Wolves at #9.

In 2012 there was no doubt in my mind or anyone else's mind that Anthony Davis should be the #1 pick.

In 2011, I shared the consensus view that Kyrie Irving should be the #1 pick. I actually thought Darrick Williams was a great pick at #2. Interestingly, there were no public reports questioning his motor or passion for the game. As it turned out, those were the issues that ultimately turned him into a bust.

I'll stop there. I just don't recall being this unsure about who the top pick should be or who the Wolves should take. Right now, I remain stuck on Okongwu as the best choice for the Wolves. I'd be tempted to take him at #1.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

[Coolbreeze44]

This is quite a discussion. I think most of us agree the best option would be to find a good trade down opportunity. What makes that hard is the same reasons we want out of #1, are the same reasons other teams would be hesitant to trade into #1. I'd obviously rather have the 1st pick than the 5th, but this asset is relatively less valuable than it could be. Rather than trading down for a role player and a pick, I hope Rosas is turning over every stone to try and find a very good young player with plenty of upside off a team that needs to rebuild. When i say this i think of Bradley Beal or someone of that ilk.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

To be fair... I don't put much stock in why Edwards claimed he went to Georgia. Maybe it was for a green light. Maybe it was a for a new car under the table. Neither is unheard of by any stretch. Neither is actually going there for the reasons he claimed. Nobody here has any idea what the truth is.

I don't put much stock in Wiseman overcoming some great atrocity when it comes to the shady Hardaway connection.

I don't put much stock in Ball's passion by his 12 game stint to do whatever he wanted in Australia.

This is not only the board talking about this stuff. With one guy having one college season under his belt with varying degrees of individual success for a lousy team... another guy with 3 games... and another guy with 12 games 10,000 miles away... nobody knows much of anything.

Scouts and paid draft gurus know a little bit more... and that's where we're hearing this stuff. Granted, they're still mostly in the dark, too. But there's smoke with all three to varying degrees. It's probably unlikely all three flame out in a blaze of dispassionate play... but I don't think the folks here are generically using passion with these guys.

[Lipoli390]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

To be fair... I don't put much stock in why Edwards claimed he went to Georgia. Maybe it was for a green light. Maybe it was a for a new car under the table. Neither is unheard of by any stretch. Neither is actually going there for the reasons he claimed. Nobody here has any idea what the truth is.

I don't put much stock in Wiseman overcoming some great atrocity when it comes to the shady Hardaway connection.

I don't put much stock in Ball's passion by his 12 game stint to do whatever he wanted in Australia.

This is not only the board talking about this stuff. With one guy having one college season under his belt with varying degrees of individual success for a lousy team... another guy with 3 games... and another guy with 12 games 10,000 miles away... nobody knows much of anything.

Scouts and paid draft gurus know a little bit more... and that's where we're hearing this stuff. Granted, they're still mostly in the dark, too. But there's smoke with all three to varying degrees. It's probably unlikely all three flame out in a blaze of dispassionate play... but I don't think the folks here are generically using passion with these guys.

Well said, Abe. I'd have no concerns about the motor or basketball IQ of any of the top three if not for reports from draft analysts raising questions about all three in those areas. You can also see the defensive motor issues in video draft reviews of both Ball and Edwards. From an objective standpoint, both Ball and Edwards have shooting percentages that are also troubling.