Minnesota Sports Forum

WolvesFan21 wrote:

PorkChop wrote:Anthony was the first pick in a poor class. We knew scoring was his forte. While it's been inefficient at best he stil has the highest scoring avg (of all rooks)on the worst team in the league. It's hard to see him as the biggest disappointment. With better play around him should come easier opportunities. I know that contradicts my feelings on Towns but I expect more from a player that I thought had close to generational talent.

I agree he is not the biggest disappointment. However efficiency is the name of the game. Score more points then your opponent. You won't do that often when you shoot the ball poorly like many of the Wolves players do. Either that or they play poor defense. Ant is also getting opportunities very few rookies do considering how poorly he has shot the ball because of injuries and lack of other talent on the roster.

Ant has shown lots of skill to get a shot off and get to the rim he however is struggling massively in making the shots and drawing fouls.

I looked through a number of players who ended up being All Stars and not one started as a rookie as poorly as Ant has. So I think with history as a indicator, he has a slim chance of becoming a great player. He will probably end up being an avg starter.

A rookie on a bad team will hardly ever get the calls. I hope the lack of calls won't discourage him from still taking it to the rim. My hope is the calls will start coming, and when they do he might be a 20 pt /gm scorer.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Edwards plays pretty much how you would expect a guy to play on a team without coaching and leadership. His talent is genuine, but he doesn't have the benefit of a good culture around him. He simply shouldn't be taking so many bad shots. But it doesn't appear the organization is doing anything to mold him. But it's what we've come to expect around here.

I disagree, Cool. Edwards' play with the Wolves thus far reflects his play in college. He's a high-volume, but highly inefficient scorer, who misses a lot of shots, doesn't get to the line as much as he should and doesn't play well defensively. His NBA shooting percentages are essentially identical to his percentages in college, except that his three-point percentage with the Wolves is actually slightly higher. The highlight reels show Edwards to be immensely talented, but his NBA highlights are no different than many of the highlights of his play in college. He's a gifted athlete with an NBA body and a nice skill set - ballhandling, passing and a beautiful step-back move to get open shots. But he continues to be dogged by his tendency to miss shots and lose focus on defense.

If you're the top player in the draft and you fail because of the culture of the team that drafted you, then you shouldn't have been the top pick in the draft. No team had a worse culture than the Bulls team that drafted Michael Jordan - we'll talking cocaine addicts among other things. Michael Jordan ended up changing the culture of that team. What really happened was that Jordan, Pippen and Grant (along with some other post-Jordan acquisitions) dramatically raised the level of play on the Bulls back in the late 80s. The lesson is that a team's culture ultimately reflects the caliber of the players on the team. Your culture looks good when your players are good. The problem with the Wolves is that the team is comprised of lousy players other than KAT. Culver's a great, hard-working player, but he's not good. Okogie's a great, high-energy, hard-working player as well as a excellent defender, but he's a horrific offensive player. You'd think we'd have a great culture with two stand-up, hard-working guys like that, right? DLO is a slow, unathletic ball-stopper on the offensive end and a terrible defender, but that's who he's always been in his five prior seasons. Bottom line is that these guys just aren't very good. It's really that simple.

But we shouldn't be surprised. Culver was a poor 3-point shooter coming out of college and scouting reports at the time referred to his perimeter shot as broken. So what did we expect? Edwards was a 40% FG shooter and a 29% 3-point shooter in college. That's exactly what he his now with the Wolves. So why is anyone surprised? There's a myth that players typically improve their shooting from college to the NBA. That's generally not the case. We know DLO's history as a poor defender whose teams generally performed worse with him on the court than off the court. So we shouldn't be surprised when he doesn't look like a pillar of a contender. Players who have been questionable for 5 seasons in the NBA don't typically become franchise pillars in their 6th or 7th seasons.

The Wolves have had bad PBOs making bad players personnel decisions. Rosas is no exception. In fact, he's right there with David Kahn. Bad player-personnel decisions result in bad teams that lose a lot. Teams that play poorly and lose have bad cultures. Turn the losing around and you change the culture. But you can't fix the losing until you start making good player personnel decisions. Edwards may yet turn out to be a really good draft decision by Rosas. But so far, he looks like the player he was in college and that shouldn't surprise any of us. And it's not like he was engulfed in Timberwolves culture while in college.

The Wolves could have drafted LaMello Ball. He wouldn't have been my choice, but it's clear he would have been a great choice. It was Gersson's job to get it right, but he didn't. Rosas could have traded down and drafted Haliburton, in which case he could have acquired other valuable assets or players, but he didn't. The year before, he could have stayed put and drafted Tyler Herro, which is what Cam would have done. Then he could have traded Saric for some other decent asset or player, but he didn't. PJ Washington was another player he could have drafted that year. The Knicks were looking to unload Julius Randle this past offseason and it's likely Rosas could have acquired him for no more than he gave up to get Rubio. The Pistons let Christian Wood walk, so it's clear it wouldn't have taken much to get him in a sign-and-trade deal - James Johnson and what we gave up for Rubio for example. Bobby Portis was available as a free agent this past offseason for a lot less than Rosas decided to pay Juancho. That's all on Rosas. Meanwhile, we can look back at Thibs taking Dunn instead of Murray and taking Justin Patton instead of John Collins, Jarret Allen or OG Anunoby. Then of course, there was Flip selling for cash a pick he could have used to draft Rudy Gobert. As we all know, the list goes on.

So there's your bad culture. It's the sum total of a lot of horrible player personnel decisions, which have produced teams that haven't had players good enough to win.

So you're comparing Anthony to Jordan and blaming him out right for failing the organization but some how Towns is getting a pass?

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Edwards plays pretty much how you would expect a guy to play on a team without coaching and leadership. His talent is genuine, but he doesn't have the benefit of a good culture around him. He simply shouldn't be taking so many bad shots. But it doesn't appear the organization is doing anything to mold him. But it's what we've come to expect around here.

I disagree, Cool. Edwards' play with the Wolves thus far reflects his play in college. He's a high-volume, but highly inefficient scorer, who misses a lot of shots, doesn't get to the line as much as he should and doesn't play well defensively. His NBA shooting percentages are essentially identical to his percentages in college, except that his three-point percentage with the Wolves is actually slightly higher. The highlight reels show Edwards to be immensely talented, but his NBA highlights are no different than many of the highlights of his play in college. He's a gifted athlete with an NBA body and a nice skill set - ballhandling, passing and a beautiful step-back move to get open shots. But he continues to be dogged by his tendency to miss shots and lose focus on defense.

If you're the top player in the draft and you fail because of the culture of the team that drafted you, then you shouldn't have been the top pick in the draft. No team had a worse culture than the Bulls team that drafted Michael Jordan - we'll talking cocaine addicts among other things. Michael Jordan ended up changing the culture of that team. What really happened was that Jordan, Pippen and Grant (along with some other post-Jordan acquisitions) dramatically raised the level of play on the Bulls back in the late 80s. The lesson is that a team's culture ultimately reflects the caliber of the players on the team. Your culture looks good when your players are good. The problem with the Wolves is that the team is comprised of lousy players other than KAT. Culver's a great, hard-working player, but he's not good. Okogie's a great, high-energy, hard-working player as well as a excellent defender, but he's a horrific offensive player. You'd think we'd have a great culture with two stand-up, hard-working guys like that, right? DLO is a slow, unathletic ball-stopper on the offensive end and a terrible defender, but that's who he's always been in his five prior seasons. Bottom line is that these guys just aren't very good. It's really that simple.

But we shouldn't be surprised. Culver was a poor 3-point shooter coming out of college and scouting reports at the time referred to his perimeter shot as broken. So what did we expect? Edwards was a 40% FG shooter and a 29% 3-point shooter in college. That's exactly what he his now with the Wolves. So why is anyone surprised? There's a myth that players typically improve their shooting from college to the NBA. That's generally not the case. We know DLO's history as a poor defender whose teams generally performed worse with him on the court than off the court. So we shouldn't be surprised when he doesn't look like a pillar of a contender. Players who have been questionable for 5 seasons in the NBA don't typically become franchise pillars in their 6th or 7th seasons.

The Wolves have had bad PBOs making bad players personnel decisions. Rosas is no exception. In fact, he's right there with David Kahn. Bad player-personnel decisions result in bad teams that lose a lot. Teams that play poorly and lose have bad cultures. Turn the losing around and you change the culture. But you can't fix the losing until you start making good player personnel decisions. Edwards may yet turn out to be a really good draft decision by Rosas. But so far, he looks like the player he was in college and that shouldn't surprise any of us. And it's not like he was engulfed in Timberwolves culture while in college.

The Wolves could have drafted LaMello Ball. He wouldn't have been my choice, but it's clear he would have been a great choice. It was Gersson's job to get it right, but he didn't. Rosas could have traded down and drafted Haliburton, in which case he could have acquired other valuable assets or players, but he didn't. The year before, he could have stayed put and drafted Tyler Herro, which is what Cam would have done. Then he could have traded Saric for some other decent asset or player, but he didn't. PJ Washington was another player he could have drafted that year. The Knicks were looking to unload Julius Randle this past offseason and it's likely Rosas could have acquired him for no more than he gave up to get Rubio. The Pistons let Christian Wood walk, so it's clear it wouldn't have taken much to get him in a sign-and-trade deal - James Johnson and what we gave up for Rubio for example. Bobby Portis was available as a free agent this past offseason for a lot less than Rosas decided to pay Juancho. That's all on Rosas. Meanwhile, we can look back at Thibs taking Dunn instead of Murray and taking Justin Patton instead of John Collins, Jarret Allen or OG Anunoby. Then of course, there was Flip selling for cash a pick he could have used to draft Rudy Gobert. As we all know, the list goes on.

So there's your bad culture. It's the sum total of a lot of horrible player personnel decisions, which have produced teams that haven't had players good enough to win.

Solid post, I do think you make a solid case here. I do think it does go both ways also though. I think this iteration of the Wolves is doing Anthony Edwards no favors. You mention Edwards and his poor shooting and we should of known he is going to shoot similar in the NBA. I don't really disagree with you there, this is no surprise to me that Edwards is struggling with efficiency in the NBA. So why though is Ball shooting so well and succeeding even though he shot worse in his year overseas. For all the issues Edwards had, Ball had them worse (obviously Ball was considered the better playmaker) So why is Ball seeing success but Edwards is a rollercoaster. I think some of it comes to culture and what the Wolves are doing compared to what the Hornets are doing. Lets compare current starting lineups of these rosters. At lead guard, Dlo vs Rozier, both have been in the NBA for 6 years. Dlo has played in 5 career playoff games, compared to 50 career playoff games for Rozier. 45 game playoff game difference and being on a winner 5 of his 6 years compared to Dlo 1 of his 6 years. Rozier knows how to win or what it takes to play winning basketball. Lets look at the other wing position. Hayward vs Beasley. Beasley has played in 14 career playoff games where he was only 7th in minutes for the Nuggets compared to Hayward who is has played in 29 playoff games and was the best player on his team for 15 of them in Utah. Lets look at PF, Washington vs Vandy/Okogie/Layman. Young lotto pick vs G-leaguer/undersized PF late 1st/journeyman. Now to Center obviously Kat is more talented then Zeller but even Zeller has played in more playoff games then Kat. Zeller is still an 8 year vet who has been a capable NBA starting talent for 6 of those. Even a guy like Bisimack Biyombo is a 10 year NBA vet who has played in 23 career playoff games. Look at the Wolves Rubio is legit the only player in the Wolves rotation who has made the playoffs more then once. That is crazy. Rubio has not been good this year but he is playing with people who have never known how to win at the NBA level and continue to play on losers and develop bad habits or they have no experience to understand what good habits are.

The Wolves in the last 10 years have not been good but even look at the wolves 3 best seasons during that time. Thibs playoff year/Adelman year/Thibs fired year. Look at those 3 teams, one made the playoffs, one had the best pt differencial in NBA history not to make the playoffs and the other was a solid NBA record but was filled with Butler drama and a coaching change in the middle of the season. Look that the vets that team had to sprinkle in with the young talented guys.

Thibs playoff year: Of our top 10 rotation players 7 of them were older then 25 years old, the 3 that weren't were Towns, Wiggins and Tyus. We had 5 of the 10 players have multiple years of playoff experience. That team sprinkled in vets that had done shit, with the young talent the Wolves had.

Adelman year: Of the top 10 rotation players 7 of them were 25 or older, 2 of those 7 were 25. The only player under 25 in the rotation was Rubio. 5 of those 10 players had multiple seasons of making the playoffs. That team didn't have as good of players as the Thibs year talent wise but had a ton of people who had been around the block a time or two or were at least older.

Thibs firing year: Of the top 10 rotation players 5 of them were over 25, our 11th and 12th man were in their 30s. Saric who was 24 had played in multiple playoff series. The team had legit NBA vets that had been around the block a time or 2.

This year wolves: Of the top 10 rotation player 2 of them were 25 or older. One of those players is Kat at age 25. The wolves have 1 rotation player who has played in more then 1 year of the playoffs and that is Ricky. Wolves have only 5 players who are 25 or older out of their 15 roster spots. Only Ed Davis and Rubio have been in the rotation in multiple playoff teams and Ed Davis is dead last in minutes on the Wolves.

Sorry I just went on a long rant post. Lip is right the Wolves haven't drafted well. No matter who drafted Dunn he was never going to reach where Murray is now, same as Flynn, same as probably Culver (A little more torn on that one) and probably the same as Patton (Patton did get screwed by injuries and we'll see he is starting to get minutes with the Rockets). I am in no way going to argue with Lip that the Wolves have been a good drafting team. I do think Rosas has done a terrible deserves to the Wolves for not bringing in legit vets to this roster. This team is trying to learn how to win when nobody has any idea how to win in the NBA. This team has talent but nobody to actually get the best out of our players because this team has no legit vets. Rosas has some done some good in seeing and acquiring young talented pieces/assets but has done terrible in finding guys who can get the most out of that talent.

Finally on Edwards if there was a re-draft tomorrow Edwards would be #2 on my board with Lamelo being #1. Edwards has the talent, now it is up to Edwards, Finch and Rosas to acquire talent to help Edwards show that talent in a more consistent way.

Wolves are in the terrible cycle of they draft high talented players who don't know how to win. Only half the season matters because the wolves are out of the playoff hunt. Wolves players learn bad habits playing losing basketball. Those talented players get older with all those bad habits and those players like Kat, Wiggins, etc.. show those bad losing habits to our new young talented players like Culver and Edwards and those guys develop the losing habits. Wolves need to break out of that cycle. The Wolves need to have games that matter. We can tank for ever but the whole NBA is talented if games don't matter the Wolves will always be a loser and we are stuck. Hopefully Edwards is not a lost cause in the long list of Wolves talented but losing players.

I'm not sold on the Charlotte has a good culture take... for many reasons... mainly they did not have that culture just last season.

I think Hayward helps... I think Borrego publicly ripping Ball after a poor game earlier this season, specifically calling him out for his lack of defense, helps. But Ball has made a difference, too. I posted the highlights from this month already... but let's recap...

- 3 or 4 weeks ago... down 8 with 15 seconds left vs. the 76ers... Embiid is holding the ball to close out the game... Ball sneaks in and steals it even though it might be frowned upon. He hits a three pointer and the game is cut to 5. Was it gratuitous? Or did it set the tone that the Hornets won't quit?

- A few days ago... the Hornets are down big with only a minute or two vs. the Kings. They keep charging back... eventually overtake the Kings at the end.

Charlotte fans are abuzz (sorry) with HOW their favorite team is playing. And Ball deserves some of the credit for that.

We've veered off of Pork's original theme, but some great analysis of Ant here. I agree with much of what has been said, and agree with Kek that with hindsight Ant would now be my second choice behind Ball if I could have a do over (the jury is still out with Wiseman, but my sense is that he may be an above average 7-footer...a good asset on a team, but not worth the first pick). However, Ant could still become worthy of the first pick, but it's up to Finch to make that happen

Lip is correct that Ant is shooting as inefficiently and almost identical to what he did in college. But I blame Edwards/Saunders/Finch here more than I blame Rosas, because those three are responsible for Ant's poor shot selection, not Rosas. I assume that Rosas made his draft selection based on Ant's athleticism and volume scoring as an 18-year-old, and assumed as I did, that he would be a much more efficient scorer in college with defenses focusing on KAT/Beas/DLO et al rather than triple teaming him on almost every possession because Georgia had no better options. But no, Ant is operating on offense almost exactly like he did in Georgia, and that's on him and coaching. He has a remarkable ability to get to the rim, and his 57% success rate inside 3 feet, while only average in the NBA, is much better than any of his other shot choices...his shooting percentages on mid-range, long 2's and 3's are tragically bad.

Ant does not seem capable of editing himself as an immature 19-year-old, so this is where coaching comes in. Ryan enabled Ant by giving him starter's minutes despite his poor shot selection, and so far Finch has done nothing different. I'm heartened though that Finch has mentioned a couple times the Edwards Ratio...2/3 of his shots have to be at the rim. Words are fine, but mean nothing without accountability. Finch needs to insist that Ant follow his ratio, or bench Ant if he lapses back to bad habits. If Ant abandons the mid-range game (he makes only 13% of his shots between 10-16 feet, and less than 30% of his shots from 3-10), and limits his shooting to 2/3 layups/dunks and 1/3 open threes, I think he has the potential to become an efficient 20+ scorer. Finch has had a solid week to pound his ideas into this roster...I'll be watching Ant very closely in the first few games after the break to see if he has learned anything.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not sold on the Charlotte has a good culture take... for many reasons... mainly they did not have that culture just last season.

I think Hayward helps... I think Borrego publicly ripping Ball after a poor game earlier this season, specifically calling him out for his lack of defense, helps. But Ball has made a difference, too. I posted the highlights from this month already... but let's recap...

- 3 or 4 weeks ago... down 8 with 15 seconds left vs. the 76ers... Embiid is holding the ball to close out the game... Ball sneaks in and steals it even though it might be frowned upon. He hits a three pointer and the game is cut to 5. Was it gratuitous? Or did it set the tone that the Hornets won't quit?

- A few days ago... the Hornets are down big with only a minute or two vs. the Kings. They keep charging back... eventually overtake the Kings at the end.

Charlotte fans are abuzz (sorry) with HOW their favorite team is playing. And Ball deserves some of the credit for that.

Charlotte just got flat out lucky Ball has upped his game significantly from last year. If he's shooting low 20's from 3 and struggling on defense immensely then it would be a different story.

Ant has been overall much of what we thought and I still think it's unlikely he becomes a great player. He says the right things and has a nice smile but it's going to come down to putting the ball in the hoop and playing smart defense. I don't think he will be good at either still in a few seasons, but I hope I am wrong.

If he ends up "just" being a solid NBA starter I would take that at this point as long as we don't give him a max like we did Wiggins. Wiggins would have been fine making half of what he does but he was paid to much and asked to do too much.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not sold on the Charlotte has a good culture take... for many reasons... mainly they did not have that culture just last season.

I think Hayward helps... I think Borrego publicly ripping Ball after a poor game earlier this season, specifically calling him out for his lack of defense, helps. But Ball has made a difference, too. I posted the highlights from this month already... but let's recap...

- 3 or 4 weeks ago... down 8 with 15 seconds left vs. the 76ers... Embiid is holding the ball to close out the game... Ball sneaks in and steals it even though it might be frowned upon. He hits a three pointer and the game is cut to 5. Was it gratuitous? Or did it set the tone that the Hornets won't quit?

- A few days ago... the Hornets are down big with only a minute or two vs. the Kings. They keep charging back... eventually overtake the Kings at the end.

Charlotte fans are abuzz (sorry) with HOW their favorite team is playing. And Ball deserves some of the credit for that.

Charlotte just got flat out lucky Ball has upped his game significantly from last year. If he's shooting low 20's from 3 and struggling on defense immensely then it would be a different story.

Ant has been overall much of what we thought and I still think it's unlikely he becomes a great player. He says the right things and has a nice smile but it's going to come down to putting the ball in the hoop and playing smart defense. I don't think he will be good at either still in a few seasons, but I hope I am wrong.

If he ends up "just" being a solid NBA starter I would take that at this point as long as we don't give him a max like we did Wiggins. Wiggins would have been fine making half of what he does but he was paid to much and asked to do too much.

I would add that Charlotte got lucky having two teams ahead of them in the draft pass on the guy that more analysts thought should go #1. I'm not saying that Ball was the consensus #1 pick because there wasn't one this year, just that he was the guy most mentioned by analysts who should go #1. We all think we are quite smart here and we often are, but almost all of us (including me) scratched our heads when we read all the good things about Ball. Charlotte was lucky that we were wrong, and more importantly, that Minnesota and GS both passed on the guy who appears to be the best player in the draft.

With the caveat of course that it's still early...things could change.

Just start with firing Saunders, please.

PorkChop wrote:So you're comparing Anthony to Jordan and blaming him out right for failing the organization but some how Towns is getting a pass?

Lol. I'm actually saying that Anthony is a better player than Jordan. I'm also saying the earth is flat, although not as flat as Kyrie Irving things it is.