Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:I'm not trading Anthony Edwards on his rookie contract, assuming his play doesn't fall off a cliff -- and none of us here expect his trajectory to go anywhere but up. The Sixers also don't have the leverage to ask for Edwards. The time to dangle Ben Simmons for Edwards was last summer prior to the draft. A lot of things have happened since then. Edwards is as untouchable as Zion Williamson and Ja Morant despite not being that caliber of player yet.

Fair take (although rookie Ant is miles short of rookie Zion), and I agree that the Sixers don't have the leverage to ask for Ant...yet. But if they come to us with a credible statement that they are about to trade with Sac-Town unless we offer Ant plus pieces, I suspect our provincialism may have reached a new peak if we don't at least consider it. I admit it's scary, but I would have to do it.

Again, let's hope we have other much cheaper options. I'm just not convinced we will.

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm not trading Anthony Edwards on his rookie contract, assuming his play doesn't fall off a cliff -- and none of us here expect his trajectory to go anywhere but up. The Sixers also don't have the leverage to ask for Edwards. The time to dangle Ben Simmons for Edwards was last summer prior to the draft. A lot of things have happened since then. Edwards is as untouchable as Zion Williamson and Ja Morant despite not being that caliber of player yet.

Fair take (although rookie Ant is miles short of rookie Zion), and I agree that the Sixers don't have the leverage to ask for Ant...yet. But if they come to us with a credible statement that they are about to trade with Sac-Town unless we offer Ant plus pieces, I suspect our provincialism may have reached a new peak if we don't at least consider it. I admit it's scary, but I would have to do it.

Again, let's hope we have other much cheaper options. I'm just not convinced we will.

Yeah, that's just not happening and won't even be a real discussion. And I'd argue that Anthony Edwards in his 36 games after the All-Star break was actually better than the 24 games Zion Williamson played as a rookie. Go check out those numbers if you have the time.

Edwards is 20-years old with three years left of making $13-million or less each season. It's reasonable to think that he achieves All-Star status before his current deal expires. I can't stress to you enough the high level of value that he has, especially when you're talking about trading him for a player five years older making double the salary when he'll be acquired for far less than what Edwards is worth.

But it's good to know you'd give Edwards away! Ha.

FNG wrote:As an addendum to my post above, let's compare Ant and Simmons last year.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=simmobe01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id1=edwaran01&p2yrfrom=2021&sum=0&request=1

ORtg: Simmons 114 Ant 102
DRTg: Simmons 106 Ant 114
Vorp: Simmons 2.2 Ant -0.3
WS: Simmons: 6 Ant .8
TS% Simmons 58.4 Ant 52.3
PER Simmons 18.3 Ant 13.9

And, on and on...

Sure, we all think Ant is going to get better, but is he going to get so much better that he is certain to close the enormous gap that currently exists between the two players? We don't know, but it's a pretty risky bet I think.

The rub with Edwards is that his 1st half of the season was SO BAD (worst key rotation player in the league bad?)... that it skews his overall numbers significantly.

I think many people are guessing Edwards will look more like he did the 2nd half of the season.

I have some doubts that he can match that level over a full campaign, but I'm pretty optimistic that it's a better barometer of who he is. His defense and decision-making will remain works in progress, obviously.

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm not trading Anthony Edwards on his rookie contract, assuming his play doesn't fall off a cliff -- and none of us here expect his trajectory to go anywhere but up. The Sixers also don't have the leverage to ask for Edwards. The time to dangle Ben Simmons for Edwards was last summer prior to the draft. A lot of things have happened since then. Edwards is as untouchable as Zion Williamson and Ja Morant despite not being that caliber of player yet.

Fair take (although rookie Ant is miles short of rookie Zion), and I agree that the Sixers don't have the leverage to ask for Ant...yet. But if they come to us with a credible statement that they are about to trade with Sac-Town unless we offer Ant plus pieces, I suspect our provincialism may have reached a new peak if we don't at least consider it. I admit it's scary, but I would have to do it.

Again, let's hope we have other much cheaper options. I'm just not convinced we will.

Yeah, that's just not happening and won't even be a real discussion. And I'd argue that Anthony Edwards in his 36 games after the All-Star break was actually better than the 24 games Zion Williamson played as a rookie. Go check out those numbers if you have the time.

Edwards is 20-years old with three years left of making $13-million or less each season. It's reasonable to think that he achieves All-Star status before his current deal expires. I can't stress to you enough the high level of value that he has, especially when you're talking about trading him for a player five years older making double the salary when he'll be acquired for far less than what Edwards is worth.

But it's good to know you'd give Edwards away! Ha.

Hey, at least I didn't give away KAT!

Actually, I wouldn't classify this as giving away Ant when we're getting back the best defensive player in the league who really wants to be here with his old buddies KAT and Dlo. And despite Ant's admitted improvement in the second half of the season and the fact that his raw numbers resembled Zion's (quite impressive), the underlying data isn't as attractive. Zion was considered a much better defender and efficient scorer the second half of their respective rookie years, so the gap in their performance was still pretty big.

ORTg: Zion 115 Ant 108

DRtg: Zion 113 Ant 117

How about my hypothetical question if you replace the best defender in the league with the best offensive player. Would you trade Ant plus irrelevant pieces for 25-year-old Steph Curry?

We can't help it...we're provincial Wolves' fans and we value guys like Ant and Jaden more than other fans do. It's human nature. But do you think Charlotte would balk at Philly if they offered Simmons for Ball? After all, the league concluded Ball had the superior rookie season.

Correct. Charlotte isn't entertaining any LaMelo Ball trade either. It's an absolute non-starter. Memphis isn't considering Ja Morant. Sacramento isn't considering De'Aaron Fox. Oklahoma City isn't considering Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. The list could go on. You have to understand the situation Philadelphia put themselves in and realize that it significantly dampens what they're going to get for Ben Simmons. The haul will still be respectable in terms of assets, but nothing near what Simmons' on-court value represents, which is where I think your head is right now. We're long past that in terms of trade value.

FWIW I wouldn't trade Edwards for Zion.

Camden wrote:Correct. Charlotte isn't entertaining any LaMelo Ball trade either. It's an absolute non-starter. Memphis isn't considering Ja Morant. Sacramento isn't considering De'Aaron Fox. Oklahoma City isn't considering Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. The list could go on. You have to understand the situation Philadelphia put themselves in and realize that it significantly dampens what they're going to get for Ben Simmons. The haul will still be respectable in terms of assets, but nothing near what Simmons' on-court value represents, which is where I think your head is right now. We're long past that in terms of trade value.

I agree, Cam. You and I disagree around the edges about what the Wolves would have to do to get Simmons and whether the Kings might ultimately put Fox on the table. But I fundamentally agree with you that Morey has overplayed his hand and that the ground has shifted to the point where Morey is not going to get the haul he expected for his all-star, defensive-player-of-the-year brick layer.

monsterpile wrote:FWIW I wouldn't trade Edwards for Zion.

Interesting, monster...I wonder if others share that view. I joined this board after the draft, but I went back and read a lot of the draft threads. There's no question in my mind that I was much higher on Ant at the time of the draft than most of the posters here. It looked to me like Wiseman was the consensus pick here (with a couple choosing Ant as I recall), and I thought Ant was far and away the best choice at #1. But I also saw it as a relatively weak draft at the top, and I was quite aware of the risks associated with Ant.

Fast forward, and it seems like the board has really bought into Ant, while his rookie year unfortunately substantiated the concerns I had about him...primarily questionable shot selection and poor defense. I'm still high on him, but I have him in a completely different stratosphere than Zion.

I hope you're right, monster, because if Ant ends up a better 2-way player than Zion, this roster has way more promise than I currently see. As for me, though, I would trade Ant for Zion in a heartbeat. And I've even moved past including him with KAT as an untouchable piece. Maybe I'm getting too cautious in my dotage, but I'm taking the sure thing over promise.

The Raptors apparently offered VanVleet, Anunoby and a protected 2020 1st for Simmons. The Kings apparently have a standing offer on the table of Haliburton, Barnes and lightly-protected 1st. I think there are two ways right now for the Wolves to beat those offers. One way might be offering Beasley, McDaniels and Prince along with 3 lightly-protected 1st round picks, although I'm not sure that would be enough because I think Philly is a better team next season with Haliburton and Barnes than they would be with Beasley, McDaniels and Prince. The other would be offering DLO, Layman and two lightly-protected first rounders. I'm still not sure Morey would consider that a better deal than VanVleet, Anunoby and a protected 1st. Toronto could easily up the ante but making the pick lightly protected and maybe adding a lottery-protected first.

Listening to NBA radio yesterday, they had an insider on who said the Simmons/Sixers bond was broken beyond the point of return. Simmons won't report if he's not traded.

I'm with Monster, I wouldn't trade Ant for Zion, though my reasoning is mostly health based. Would I trade Ant for Simmons straight up? That's a really hard one for me, but I think Simmons makes us a contender whereas we have hope for someday being a contender with Ant. I think I would do it.