Ben Simmons Talk Revived

[Lipoli390]

The recent silence regarding Ben Simmons has been deafening. Then today, I read a report that Ben Simmons is refusing to have any communication with anyone in the Sixers organization. According to the same report, he's told the Sixers he's willing to be traded to the Warriors - as if he has any say in where he goes.

In light of this report, I thought I'd revive the Simmons talk on our message board. There are those who think Rosas is a pedestrian thinker who's in way over his head in his current role. Accordingly, they see his actions, or lack thereof, so far this off-season as another sign of ineptitude. But let me offer a countervailing assessment. Far from incompetent, Gersson has been extraordinarily savvy, biding his time until he's ready to strike and consummate a blockbuster deal for Ben Simmons.

Gersson knew that it was a matter of time before the Simmons situation would implode and create a giant, permanent public chasm between Ben and the Sixers organization that would make the Sixers desperate to deal him. Rosas knew that would be the moment to strike. Well, that moment is fast approaching. Gersson also knew that Prince + $2.5M in cash would be far more attractive than Ricky as part of an outgoing trade package. Add those assets to the likes of Culver, Juancho and Layman and you have the makings of an offer Morey simply won't be able to refuse. So the stage is set and the drama is about to begin. Soon those who have doubted Rosas will see that he really is, to use Cam's phrase, the smartest guy in the room.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I feel like that report about cutting off communications is such click-bait. It's early in the offseason. They're actively trying to trade him. Why would they have communications?

They're not going over schemes. They're not planning a team picnic. They're negotiating the complex matter of getting him out of town. Shouldn't that be left to the professionals who excel in that part of the job?

[Lipoli390]

I feel like that report about cutting off communications is such click-bait. It's early in the offseason. They're actively trying to trade him. Why would they have communications?

They're not going over schemes. They're not planning a team picnic. They're negotiating the complex matter of getting him out of town. Shouldn't that be left to the professionals who excel in that part of the job?

I think you're absolutely right, Abe. But it was fun to riff on it a bit. :)

[AbeVigodaLive]

I feel like that report about cutting off communications is such click-bait. It's early in the offseason. They're actively trying to trade him. Why would they have communications?

They're not going over schemes. They're not planning a team picnic. They're negotiating the complex matter of getting him out of town. Shouldn't that be left to the professionals who excel in that part of the job?

I think you're absolutely right, Abe. But it was fun to riff on it a bit. :)

Oh definitely. That's why we see it. It's irresistible.



[Note: That is an odd situation by the way. I'm trying to think of another player in recent years who was obviously so good/bad... and dug/hated like Simmons. I guess Westbrook a bit, but he's always leaned toward "good." Maybe somebody like Jerry Stackhouse? Derrick Coleman?]

[Monster]

I feel like that report about cutting off communications is such click-bait. It's early in the offseason. They're actively trying to trade him. Why would they have communications?

They're not going over schemes. They're not planning a team picnic. They're negotiating the complex matter of getting him out of town. Shouldn't that be left to the professionals who excel in that part of the job?

I think you're absolutely right, Abe. But it was fun to riff on it a bit. :)

Oh definitely. That's why we see it. It's irresistible.



[Note: That is an odd situation by the way. I'm trying to think of another player in recent years who was obviously so good/bad... and dug/hated like Simmons. I guess Westbrook a bit, but he's always leaned toward "good." Maybe somebody like Jerry Stackhouse? Derrick Coleman?]

Remember when the issue with Simmons as a prospect was whether or not he would play hard and defend? He is literally one of the best defenders in the NBA.

[thedoper]

I think the negative evaluation of Simmons is a bit crazy. Almost every player has flaws. If I were to tell you about a power forward who is an all world defender, with elite athleticism and amazing passing and vision, with their downside being FTs and 3s, I think most people would be very interested. Simmons does his good things so well that people expect him to be Lebron in his weak areas. Because he is so dynamic, people want him to be a PG. He's a really talented 4, and the best one in the league right now. Let him develop from there. I dont think Philly will get back enough for him. I would never put all my chips in on Embid, in spite of the season he just had.

[Lipoli390]

I think the negative evaluation of Simmons is a bit crazy. Almost every player has flaws. If I were to tell you about a power forward who is an all world defender, with elite athleticism and amazing passing and vision, with their downside being FTs and 3s, I think most people would be very interested. Simmons does his good things so well that people expect him to be Lebron in his weak areas. Because he is so dynamic, people want him to be a PG. He's a really talented 4, and the best one in the league right now. Let him develop from there. I dont think Philly will get back enough for him. I would never put all my chips in on Embid, in spite of the season he just had.

Doper - You make a really good point about not putting all your chips on Embiid. Right now, the Sixers are tied to him. He's their best player and the cornerstone of their franchise. But I just don't see him holding up physically over the long haul. I'm sure the Sixers have that in mind, which means they know their window of opportunity is limited. I think they'd love to swap Simmons for a guy like Lillard; however that doesn't seem realistic right now. They're not likely to trade Simmons for a player who isn't at Lillard's level. And that means it's unlikely he'll be traded this summer.

[FNG]

https://theathletic.com/2745318/2021/08/02/anonymous-nba-coaches-poll-2020-21-best-defenders/?source=twitterhq

I think the Simmons talk was relatively cool in early August when Jonny Athletic wrote this article, and so I don't believe it was talked about here. If you can't (or don't want to) read it, Jon K. surveyed head and assistant coaches in Vegas for SL as to who was the best defender in the NBA. Simmons was the winner, beating out Gobert and miles ahead of names like Green, Giannis, Embiid, Holiday, and Leonard. Now that the consensus here is that the Simmons dream is alive again, I think we need to take a close look at what Simmons being the very best defender in the NBA means for what we would be willing to give up in a possible trade.

Let's stipulate that defense is almost as important as offense in defining success, or even as important. Now let's consider the Wolves had a chance to trade for a 25-year-old player widely considered the greatest offensive player in the game at that young age. Let's further say that while this player had defensive metrics that were at least average, he was coming off a poor defensive playoffs that had caused his team to make him available. Further, he was dissatisfied with his team, and had declared that he would no longer play for that team and reportedly would be happy to join the Wolves.

Question: who would be off the table to give up to pick up this player? I would argue that nobody would be off the table. Certainly not Jaden, and not even KAT or Ant. So it seems incongruous to me some of us are concerned about giving up an unproven but promising rookie like Jaden, or that Dlo, Beasley and picks would be too much. We'd be salivating to pick up this hypothetical young offensive star for Dlo, Beasley and picks.

Don't get me wrong. I'm with the majority in supporting Rosas's approach in waiting for the Simmons price tag to come down, and agree with some of you that every passing day increases the formerly slim chance of getting Simmons on a bargain deal. But I am also adamant that we have to do what it takes to land the consensus most dominant defensive player in the league...especially considering that he also averaged 14.3/7.2/6.9 with a TS% better than any current Timberwolf other than KAT. Rosas simply can't let him get away if he's serious about turning this woeful franchise around, and shame on him if Philly is ready to do a deal that includes Dlo + anyone else who is not Ant or KAT, and he is balking at it.

But if Dlo, Beasley (or Jaden) plus picks still isn't enough to sway Philly, and it looks like they are going to take a Sac-town deal focused around Fox...how far should we be prepared to go to bring in this game-changer? Before you answer, ask yourself this. Would you trade Ant, Prince and Layman for my hypothetical 25-year-old most dominant game-changing offensive player in the game (think a young Steph Curry or Dame Lilliard, for instance)? Now, would you trade that trio for Simmons?

I swallow hard when I say this, but I think I would. Ant showed remarkable promise last year along with improvement during the year, but frankly we don't know if he is ever going to be a good defender (he certainly wasn't in his rookie year or in college), and there is a chance that his ceiling is Zach Lavine...a highlight-reel offensive dynamo whose other flaws make him +/- neutral at best. Wouldn't you love to go into the season with this rotation?

KAT/Reid
Simmons/Vando
Jaden/Okogie
Beasley/Nowell
Dlo/Beverley, J-Mac

Again, I'd prefer to unload Dlo and Beasley rather than Ant, but many of us aren't convinced that will be good enough for Philliy. I suspect Ant would be. Simmons is available and wants to be here with his buddies, and is the best defender in the league. We need to get him.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I'm not trading Anthony Edwards on his rookie contract, assuming his play doesn't fall off a cliff -- and none of us here expect his trajectory to go anywhere but up. The Sixers also don't have the leverage to ask for Edwards. The time to dangle Ben Simmons for Edwards was last summer prior to the draft. A lot of things have happened since then. Edwards is as untouchable as Zion Williamson and Ja Morant despite not being that caliber of player yet.

[FNG]

As an addendum to my post above, let's compare Ant and Simmons last year.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=simmobe01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id1=edwaran01&p2yrfrom=2021&sum=0&request=1

ORtg: Simmons 114 Ant 102
DRTg: Simmons 106 Ant 114
Vorp: Simmons 2.2 Ant -0.3
WS: Simmons: 6 Ant .8
TS% Simmons 58.4 Ant 52.3
PER Simmons 18.3 Ant 13.9

And, on and on...

Sure, we all think Ant is going to get better, but is he going to get so much better that he is certain to close the enormous gap that currently exists between the two players? We don't know, but it's a pretty risky bet I think.