Player A vs, Player B

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Great, we're comparing Ben Simmons to Shaquille O'Neal in this thread. What could go wrong?

Edit: I'm being facetious here if it wasn't totally obvious. I meant it in a harmless way.

I know you're being facetious. And I also know you recognize we're not comparing Simmons to Shaq, because they are totally different players. But what we are comparing in this thread is two potential offenses...the Lake Show with Shaq and the Wolves after a hypothetical deal of Ant for Simmons. I'm refuting the narrative that a guy who never takes a 3-pointer (Simmons) is a detriment to the offense because he hurts spacing, because that was never a problem with Shaq's Lakers.

Compare the situation, not the players.

Shaq didn't need to shoot from the perimeter because he dominated inside -- not just in efficiency but with volume. He was dropping 30 on guys nightly. That's the biggest problem in your comparison as I see it.

Ben Simmons is effective at what he does, and I would hardly say that anyone here thinks he's a detriment offensively, but it's not the same because of the volume. Additionally, if he would occasionally shoot pull-up mid-range shots and open three-pointers off the catch, even if he isn't all that efficient from those spots, it would absolutely make him more dangerous individually and from a team standpoint. Sacrifice a little from the shooting percentages to open up the entire floor more. Maybe his percentages go down a little bit and four teammates see theirs go up as a result of the added room to operate. Basketball is a game of nuances where everything can be affected by the littlest changes. The threat of him shooting outside of 10-feet is lacking and defenses know it. Change that and he becomes much more dangerous.

[Lipoli390]

Great, we're comparing Ben Simmons to Shaquille O'Neal in this thread. What could go wrong?

Edit: I'm being facetious here if it wasn't totally obvious. I meant it in a harmless way.

I know you're being facetious. And I also know you recognize we're not comparing Simmons to Shaq, because they are totally different players. But what we are comparing in this thread is two potential offenses...the Lake Show with Shaq and the Wolves after a hypothetical deal of Ant for Simmons. I'm refuting the narrative that a guy who never takes a 3-pointer (Simmons) is a detriment to the offense because he hurts spacing, because that was never a problem with Shaq's Lakers.

Compare the situation, not the players.

Shaq didn't need to shoot from the perimeter because he dominated inside -- not just in efficiency but with volume. He was dropping 30 on guys nightly. That's the biggest problem in your comparison as I see it.

Ben Simmons is effective at what he does, and I would hardly say that anyone here thinks he's a detriment offensively, but it's not the same because of the volume. Additionally, if he would occasionally shoot pull-up mid-range shots and open three-pointers off the catch, even if he isn't all that efficient from those spots, it would absolutely make him more dangerous individually and from a team standpoint. Sacrifice a little from the shooting percentages to open up the entire floor more. Maybe his percentages go down a little bit and four teammates see theirs go up as a result of the added room to operate. Basketball is a game of nuances where everything can be affected by the littlest changes. The threat of him shooting outside of 10-feet is lacking and defenses know it. Change that and he becomes much more dangerous.

Well said, Cam!

[FNG]

Great, we're comparing Ben Simmons to Shaquille O'Neal in this thread. What could go wrong?

Edit: I'm being facetious here if it wasn't totally obvious. I meant it in a harmless way.

I know you're being facetious. And I also know you recognize we're not comparing Simmons to Shaq, because they are totally different players. But what we are comparing in this thread is two potential offenses...the Lake Show with Shaq and the Wolves after a hypothetical deal of Ant for Simmons. I'm refuting the narrative that a guy who never takes a 3-pointer (Simmons) is a detriment to the offense because he hurts spacing, because that was never a problem with Shaq's Lakers.

Compare the situation, not the players.

Shaq didn't need to shoot from the perimeter because he dominated inside -- not just in efficiency but with volume. He was dropping 30 on guys nightly. That's the biggest problem in your comparison as I see it.

Ben Simmons is effective at what he does, and I would hardly say that anyone here thinks he's a detriment offensively, but it's not the same because of the volume. Additionally, if he would occasionally shoot pull-up mid-range shots and open three-pointers off the catch, even if he isn't all that efficient from those spots, it would absolutely make him more dangerous individually and from a team standpoint. Sacrifice a little from the shooting percentages to open up the entire floor more. Maybe his percentages go down a little bit and four teammates see theirs go up as a result of the added room to operate. Basketball is a game of nuances where everything can be affected by the littlest changes. The threat of him shooting outside of 10-feet is lacking and defenses know it. Change that and he becomes much more dangerous.

I don't disagree, Cam...there's no question his 14 PPG would increase and he would become more dangerous if he were willing to shoot more than he does from 10-16 feet. And it's not that he's not a good shooter (well, except from the free throw line of course)...it's that he's not a willing shooter outside of 10 feet. I think most here would be surprised to hear that his shooting percentage from 10-16 of 36.6% last season was better than Dlo's (34.6%) and much better than Ant's (24.6%). But only 7% of his shots came from that range. Now, some would say that's good...unless you're Chris Paul, the 10-16 footer is not often an efficient shot choice. But your point about everything being effected by the littlest changes is a good one, and I would think the threat of more 10 footers would force his defender to get in on him, leading to more drives to the basket where he is incredibly efficient at 71.6%. Many of us marveled at Ant's body control and ability to finish last year, but in contrast to Ben he was 64.7% within 3 feet. Maybe Ben can even move closer to the gold standard in finishing within 3 feet...Giannis at 83.7% last season!

The Philly fan base is disdainful of the videos on the internet of Ben draining 10 footer after 10 footer during his LA workouts. But he shows a nice touch, and I'd like to think a change in scenery away from the booing Philly fan base might be just what he needs to have the confidence to let a few more of those fly. I just hope that new confidence shows up in Target Center and not somewhere else.

[Crazysauce]

A couple things here FNG. Simmons took about 40 shots the whole season from that range. That's less than one per game. His career from there is 29 percent. Add to that the 2 shots he took from 16 feet to 3pt line and his 10 threes attempted and your looking at a total of 52 shots from beyond 10 feet in the 58 games that he played last year. Very small sample size.

This is the issue that Philly has with Simmons and has tried to correct. He is basically afraid to shoot the ball. Now like Philly we would be hoping to fix him, but clearly Philly has tried to tell him to shoot. Their fans say they have been talking about it since he was there.

I think to myself of how Rubio was hesitant to shoot and how nobody would guard him. It made the offense very difficult as everyone would just sag off him. Its a huge issue. Add that to the fact that he's a max contract guy. There is a reason that Philly wants to get rid of him.

I'm for making a good effort to get him and all, mostly for his defensive capabilities, but these are really glaring issues.

[Lipoli390]

A couple things here FNG. Simmons took about 40 shots the whole season from that range. That's less than one per game. His career from there is 29 percent. Add to that the 2 shots he took from 16 feet to 3pt line and his 10 threes attempted and your looking at a total of 52 shots from beyond 10 feet in the 58 games that he played last year. Very small sample size.

This is the issue that Philly has with Simmons and has tried to correct. He is basically afraid to shoot the ball. Now like Philly we would be hoping to fix him, but clearly Philly has tried to tell him to shoot. Their fans say they have been talking about it since he was there.

I think to myself of how Rubio was hesitant to shoot and how nobody would guard him. It made the offense very difficult as everyone would just sag off him. Its a huge issue. Add that to the fact that he's a max contract guy. There is a reason that Philly wants to get rid of him.

I'm for making a good effort to get him and all, mostly for his defensive capabilities, but these are really glaring issues.

Yes. You've nailed it, Crazy.

[Monster]

FWIW Ben Simmons offseason videos are LEGENDARY. It's one of the things that drives Sixers fans crazy. I don't think they expect Simmons to become maybe even an average shooter but...dude looks amazing and does stuff he simply doesn't do in NBA games and it looks so easy at times. Yes it's workouts and pickup games even if it's with legit NBA players and he isn't going to have it as easy in real NBA games but it is kinda weird. I don't think we should get our hopes up that he is going to start taking and making enough shots from a longer distance. Possible sure but as FNG says we have history that says that's very unlikely to happen.

[FNG]

FWIW Ben Simmons offseason videos are LEGENDARY. It's one of the things that drives Sixers fans crazy. I don't think they expect Simmons to become maybe even an average shooter but...dude looks amazing and does stuff he simply doesn't do in NBA games and it looks so easy at times. Yes it's workouts and pickup games even if it's with legit NBA players and he isn't going to have it as easy in real NBA games but it is kinda weird. I don't think we should get our hopes up that he is going to start taking and making enough shots from a longer distance. Possible sure but as FNG says we have history that says that's very unlikely to happen.

So true, monster...they go apeshit on the message boards about his workout videos! And that highlights one of the points I'm making...Philly fans are passionate, but also downright mean at times. Crazy (and others) is right that the issue is Ben's reluctance to shoot, not his shooting ability. Most NBA players take more shots per game as their career progresses...Dlo for instance took more shots per game each of the first four years of his career. But Simmons is just the opposite...he has actually taken fewer shots per game in each of his first four seasons! I call that the Philly Effect...do something wrong in the City of Brotherly Love, and they never forgive or forget. And that's why I think Ben will benefit from a change in scenery more than any player I can think of. Midwestern fans are naturally more tolerant (listen to what Javy Baez is saying about how difficult it is to play in front of Mets' fans after his tears playing in Chicago), and Target Center would be the perfect environment for a player to regain his confidence.

Crazy if right that Ben only took about 1 shot per game from 10 to 16 feet, but the fact remains he was quite accurate on those shots at 36.7% (better than Dlo and Ant). But it should be noted that he did take about 225 shots from 3 to 10 feet (not layups, more floaters and midrange jumpers), and again he was accurate from that distance. Ben was a solid 42.6 % from 3-10, comparable to Dlo's 48.1% and much better than Ant's 31.8%. 225 shots is not a small sample size, and tells us that Ben is accurate on more than just layups.

So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter. Would his confidence increase in a different, friendlier environment? We don't know, but my guess is yes. I also think Ben will have some "I'll show those Philly assholes" after he leaves town. But let's also not forget that he would have at least 3 and perhaps 4 guys playing with him on the Wolves capable of putting up 20 on any given night, so he's not going to feel the pressure to have to score. But I'm confident that he would re-discover his confidence after leaving the Hell of Philadelphia, and being willing to take the open mid-range jumper will make him even more effective on offense.

[Monster]

FWIW Ben Simmons offseason videos are LEGENDARY. It's one of the things that drives Sixers fans crazy. I don't think they expect Simmons to become maybe even an average shooter but...dude looks amazing and does stuff he simply doesn't do in NBA games and it looks so easy at times. Yes it's workouts and pickup games even if it's with legit NBA players and he isn't going to have it as easy in real NBA games but it is kinda weird. I don't think we should get our hopes up that he is going to start taking and making enough shots from a longer distance. Possible sure but as FNG says we have history that says that's very unlikely to happen.

So true, monster...they go apeshit on the message boards about his workout videos! And that highlights one of the points I'm making...Philly fans are passionate, but also downright mean at times. Crazy (and others) is right that the issue is Ben's reluctance to shoot, not his shooting ability. Most NBA players take more shots per game as their career progresses...Dlo for instance took more shots per game each of the first four years of his career. But Simmons is just the opposite...he has actually taken fewer shots per game in each of his first four seasons! I call that the Philly Effect...do something wrong in the City of Brotherly Love, and they never forgive or forget. And that's why I think Ben will benefit from a change in scenery more than any player I can think of. Midwestern fans are naturally more tolerant (listen to what Javy Baez is saying about how difficult it is to play in front of Mets' fans after his tears playing in Chicago), and Target Center would be the perfect environment for a player to regain his confidence.

Crazy if right that Ben only took about 1 shot per game from 10 to 16 feet, but the fact remains he was quite accurate on those shots at 36.7% (better than Dlo and Ant). But it should be noted that he did take about 225 shots from 3 to 10 feet (not layups, more floaters and midrange jumpers), and again he was accurate from that distance. Ben was a solid 42.6 % from 3-10, comparable to Dlo's 48.1% and much better than Ant's 31.8%. 225 shots is not a small sample size, and tells us that Ben is accurate on more than just layups.

So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter. Would his confidence increase in a different, friendlier environment? We don't know, but my guess is yes. I also think Ben will have some "I'll show those Philly assholes" after he leaves town. But let's also not forget that he would have at least 3 and perhaps 4 guys playing with him on the Wolves capable of putting up 20 on any given night, so he's not going to feel the pressure to have to score. But I'm confident that he would re-discover his confidence after leaving the Hell of Philadelphia, and being willing to take the open mid-range jumper will make him even more effective on offense.

"So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter." Wowzers.

[FNG]

FWIW Ben Simmons offseason videos are LEGENDARY. It's one of the things that drives Sixers fans crazy. I don't think they expect Simmons to become maybe even an average shooter but...dude looks amazing and does stuff he simply doesn't do in NBA games and it looks so easy at times. Yes it's workouts and pickup games even if it's with legit NBA players and he isn't going to have it as easy in real NBA games but it is kinda weird. I don't think we should get our hopes up that he is going to start taking and making enough shots from a longer distance. Possible sure but as FNG says we have history that says that's very unlikely to happen.

So true, monster...they go apeshit on the message boards about his workout videos! And that highlights one of the points I'm making...Philly fans are passionate, but also downright mean at times. Crazy (and others) is right that the issue is Ben's reluctance to shoot, not his shooting ability. Most NBA players take more shots per game as their career progresses...Dlo for instance took more shots per game each of the first four years of his career. But Simmons is just the opposite...he has actually taken fewer shots per game in each of his first four seasons! I call that the Philly Effect...do something wrong in the City of Brotherly Love, and they never forgive or forget. And that's why I think Ben will benefit from a change in scenery more than any player I can think of. Midwestern fans are naturally more tolerant (listen to what Javy Baez is saying about how difficult it is to play in front of Mets' fans after his tears playing in Chicago), and Target Center would be the perfect environment for a player to regain his confidence.

Crazy if right that Ben only took about 1 shot per game from 10 to 16 feet, but the fact remains he was quite accurate on those shots at 36.7% (better than Dlo and Ant). But it should be noted that he did take about 225 shots from 3 to 10 feet (not layups, more floaters and midrange jumpers), and again he was accurate from that distance. Ben was a solid 42.6 % from 3-10, comparable to Dlo's 48.1% and much better than Ant's 31.8%. 225 shots is not a small sample size, and tells us that Ben is accurate on more than just layups.

So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter. Would his confidence increase in a different, friendlier environment? We don't know, but my guess is yes. I also think Ben will have some "I'll show those Philly assholes" after he leaves town. But let's also not forget that he would have at least 3 and perhaps 4 guys playing with him on the Wolves capable of putting up 20 on any given night, so he's not going to feel the pressure to have to score. But I'm confident that he would re-discover his confidence after leaving the Hell of Philadelphia, and being willing to take the open mid-range jumper will make him even more effective on offense.

"So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter." Wowzers.

Does wowzers indicate a disagreement with my statement? If so, do you disagree with the accurate or the unwilling part? Simmons' accuracy within 10 feet compares very favorably to Dlo and Ant, and while his sample size at 10-16 is small (hence, the unwilling part), his % is again better than Dlo and Ant. If you don't consider Simmons an accurate shooter inside 16 feet, you must consider Dlo and Ant complete bricklayers!

[Monster]

FWIW Ben Simmons offseason videos are LEGENDARY. It's one of the things that drives Sixers fans crazy. I don't think they expect Simmons to become maybe even an average shooter but...dude looks amazing and does stuff he simply doesn't do in NBA games and it looks so easy at times. Yes it's workouts and pickup games even if it's with legit NBA players and he isn't going to have it as easy in real NBA games but it is kinda weird. I don't think we should get our hopes up that he is going to start taking and making enough shots from a longer distance. Possible sure but as FNG says we have history that says that's very unlikely to happen.

So true, monster...they go apeshit on the message boards about his workout videos! And that highlights one of the points I'm making...Philly fans are passionate, but also downright mean at times. Crazy (and others) is right that the issue is Ben's reluctance to shoot, not his shooting ability. Most NBA players take more shots per game as their career progresses...Dlo for instance took more shots per game each of the first four years of his career. But Simmons is just the opposite...he has actually taken fewer shots per game in each of his first four seasons! I call that the Philly Effect...do something wrong in the City of Brotherly Love, and they never forgive or forget. And that's why I think Ben will benefit from a change in scenery more than any player I can think of. Midwestern fans are naturally more tolerant (listen to what Javy Baez is saying about how difficult it is to play in front of Mets' fans after his tears playing in Chicago), and Target Center would be the perfect environment for a player to regain his confidence.

Crazy if right that Ben only took about 1 shot per game from 10 to 16 feet, but the fact remains he was quite accurate on those shots at 36.7% (better than Dlo and Ant). But it should be noted that he did take about 225 shots from 3 to 10 feet (not layups, more floaters and midrange jumpers), and again he was accurate from that distance. Ben was a solid 42.6 % from 3-10, comparable to Dlo's 48.1% and much better than Ant's 31.8%. 225 shots is not a small sample size, and tells us that Ben is accurate on more than just layups.

So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter. Would his confidence increase in a different, friendlier environment? We don't know, but my guess is yes. I also think Ben will have some "I'll show those Philly assholes" after he leaves town. But let's also not forget that he would have at least 3 and perhaps 4 guys playing with him on the Wolves capable of putting up 20 on any given night, so he's not going to feel the pressure to have to score. But I'm confident that he would re-discover his confidence after leaving the Hell of Philadelphia, and being willing to take the open mid-range jumper will make him even more effective on offense.

"So it's clear that Ben is a quite accurate, but oddly unwilling, shooter." Wowzers.

Does wowzers indicate a disagreement with my statement? If so, do you disagree with the accurate or the unwilling part? Simmons' accuracy within 10 feet compares very favorably to Dlo and Ant, and while his sample size at 10-16 is small (hence, the unwilling part), his % is again better than Dlo and Ant. If you don't consider Simmons an accurate shooter inside 16 feet, you must consider Dlo and Ant complete bricklayers!

All I am going to say is I can't really dispute someone that is utilizing that type of evidence.