Player A vs, Player B

[FNG]

I know Cam is a big proponent of this kind of comparison thread. It's a great way of providing factual context to a comparative discussion of two players. This A vs. B comparison has the added benefit of also featuring a player much in the news these days. So, weigh in...do you choose A or B?

Player A: 14.3 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 7.7 APG, 113 ORtg, 105 DRtg, 57.9 TS%, 14.7 3-point %, 59.7 FT%, .147 ws/48

Player B: 12.6 PPG. 6.3 RPG, 8.7 APG, 105 ORtg, 103 DRtg, 49.8 TS%, 34.9 3-point %, 78.5 FT%, .114 ws/48

Who ya got? I'll hang up and listen...

[Porckchop]

Player B. It's not close

While the 50-40-90 club is very impressive
Being in the 14 and 59 club is equally unimpressive. Maybe even more so.

[Lipoli390]

I'll take Jason Kidd (B) over Simmons (A) - He had more assists, more steals and fewer turnovers per game and was a decent threat behind the arc because he was willing to take those shots and actually hit a respectable 35% of them.

But I'll add that this comparison is a bit misleading. First, you left out Simmons' 59.7% free-throw shooting compared to Kidd's career 78.5%. More importantly, you were comparisons career stats, which means they include Jason Kidd's stats for a number of years well past his prime. Let's look at Jason Kidd's stats when he was 24 years old like Simmons:

11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.2 TOPG, 50.2% TS.

How about Kidd's stats when he was 25 in his 5th season like Simmons:

16.9 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 10.8 APG, 36.6% 3-pt shooting, 75.7% FT on 4.8 attempts (same number of attempts as Simmons)

I don't recall what Dallas got in return when they traded him to the Suns or what the Suns got when they traded him to New Jersey or what New Jersey got when they traded him to Dallas.

[Monster]

I'll take Jason Kidd (B) over Simmons (A) - He had more assists, more steals and fewer turnovers per game and was a decent threat behind the arc because he was willing to take those shots and actually hit a respectable 35% of them.

But I'll add that this comparison is a bit misleading. First, you left out Simmons' 59.7% free-throw shooting compared to Kidd's career 78.5%. More importantly, you were comparisons career stats, which means they include Jason Kidd's stats for a number of years well past his prime. Let's look at Jason Kidd's stats when he was 24 years old like Simmons:

11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.2 TOPG, 50.2% TS.

How about Kidd's stats when he was 25 in his 5th season like Simmons:

16.9 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 10.8 APG, 36.6% 3-pt shooting, 75.7% FT on 4.8 attempts (same number of attempts as Simmons)

I don't recall what Dallas got in return when they traded him to the Suns or what the Suns got when they traded him to New Jersey or what New Jersey got when they traded him to Dallas.

Mavs package for Kidd included Micheal Finley and Sam Cassell. I had completely forgotten Cassell ever played for the Mavs but it was only a few games. Also according to Wikipedia and the article I read Kidd really wanted out of Dallas.

Kidd was later traded to the Nets for Marbury. Kinda interesting how some of these PGs were involved in various trades for each other.

[FNG]

Lip, look again...I had Simmons' poor free throw and 3-point percentages in there, so my presentation was not misleading. Simmons has scored more PPG than Kidd in his career, and despite his inability to make a three or shoot FT's at an acceptable rate, he scores in a much more efficient manner than Kidd did during his career...57.9% versus 49.8% comparative TS% is a significant and frankly astonishing difference. And while you can isolate one statistic like steals (where the difference between the two is a rounding error), unlike Simmons, Kidd was not capable of guarding the best player on the other team...regardless of his position.

You and Pork are both guilty of ignoring the importance of the high-percentage 2-point shot. You know who else couldn't make a 3-point shot and had a much worse 3-point percentage than Simmons? Shaquille O'Neal! I'm concerned he would be languishing on yours and Pork's bench or maybe be banished to the G League if you guys were coaching because of his inability to make a free throw or stretch the defense with his 3-point shot! But fortunately Phil Jackson had the incredible vision to overlook this possibly fatal flaw in Shaq's game, and Shaq was given the opportunity you and Pork wouldn't have given him. And I note that Shaq and Ben's TS percentages are almost identical.

Another guy who might not ever get off of Pork's and your bench is Giannis Antetokounmpo. I don't think either of you would have tolerated his 27% 3-point shooting or 61% free throw shooting in the playoffs, and the poor guy never would have gotten the chance to be the MVP of the NBA finals! More evidence of Coach Bud's extraordinary vision in overlooking these serious flaws in the Freak's game and giving the poor guy a chance.

OK, I kid you and Pork a little, but my point is this....there are different ways to be an effective, efficient offensive player, and smart players know how to emphasize their strengths and avoid their weaknesses. Shaq was a much more prolific scorer than Ben (although not nearly the versatile defender), but every time the ball left either of their hands, there was a 58% chance of it resulting in points (much higher than any T-Wolf starter other than KAT). And they do this by focusing their game on the high-percentage 2-point shot. 79% of Shaq's points came on 2-point shots, and 78% of Ben's.

And please don't offer the argument that a non 3-point shooter like Ben is going to "hurt spacing" or "clog the lane". I don't remember this being a big problem with Shaq's Lake Show. And with 4 excellent 3-point shooters like KAT, Dlo, Beasley and Jaden in the starting lineup next to Ben, I don't see that spacing will be any more of a problem than it was in LA.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Great, we're comparing Ben Simmons to Shaquille O'Neal in this thread. What could go wrong?

Edit: I'm being facetious here if it wasn't totally obvious. I meant it in a harmless way.

[FNG]

I'll take Jason Kidd (B) over Simmons (A) - He had more assists, more steals and fewer turnovers per game and was a decent threat behind the arc because he was willing to take those shots and actually hit a respectable 35% of them.

But I'll add that this comparison is a bit misleading. First, you left out Simmons' 59.7% free-throw shooting compared to Kidd's career 78.5%. More importantly, you were comparisons career stats, which means they include Jason Kidd's stats for a number of years well past his prime. Let's look at Jason Kidd's stats when he was 24 years old like Simmons:

11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.2 TOPG, 50.2% TS.

How about Kidd's stats when he was 25 in his 5th season like Simmons:

16.9 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 10.8 APG, 36.6% 3-pt shooting, 75.7% FT on 4.8 attempts (same number of attempts as Simmons)

I don't recall what Dallas got in return when they traded him to the Suns or what the Suns got when they traded him to New Jersey or what New Jersey got when they traded him to Dallas.

Lip, I'm trying to understand your point about comparing Kidd and Simmons at age 24, but let's lay out their respective stats:

Simmons: 14.3 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 114 ORtg, 106 DRtg, 58.4 TS%, 30 3-point %, 61.3 FT%, .153 ws/48

Kidd: 11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 105 ORtg, 101 DRtg, 50.2 TS%, 31 3-point %, 79.9 FT%, .123 ws/48

So at the same age, Simmons was a more prolific scorer at a MUCH more efficient rate, a better rebounder, and had a much better ORtg and ws/48. Kidd was a much better facilitator, surprisingly had a slightly better defensive rating and a much better FT %. 3-point shooting for the 2 players at age 25 was irrelevant because neither was very good and Kidd made fewer than one per game.

I think you would have to be engaging KellyAnne Conway's "alternative facts" to conclude Kidd was superior to Simmons at the same age. If I've left out any stats you find more relevant, I'm open to comparing them.

So again, are we really not willing to put Anthony Edwards on the table when we have a chance to pick up a player who is clearly better than HOFer Jason Kidd at the same stage of their careers? Really?

[Lipoli390]

I'll take Jason Kidd (B) over Simmons (A) - He had more assists, more steals and fewer turnovers per game and was a decent threat behind the arc because he was willing to take those shots and actually hit a respectable 35% of them.

But I'll add that this comparison is a bit misleading. First, you left out Simmons' 59.7% free-throw shooting compared to Kidd's career 78.5%. More importantly, you were comparisons career stats, which means they include Jason Kidd's stats for a number of years well past his prime. Let's look at Jason Kidd's stats when he was 24 years old like Simmons:

11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.2 TOPG, 50.2% TS.

How about Kidd's stats when he was 25 in his 5th season like Simmons:

16.9 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 10.8 APG, 36.6% 3-pt shooting, 75.7% FT on 4.8 attempts (same number of attempts as Simmons)

I don't recall what Dallas got in return when they traded him to the Suns or what the Suns got when they traded him to New Jersey or what New Jersey got when they traded him to Dallas.

Lip, I'm trying to understand your point about comparing Kidd and Simmons at age 24, but let's lay out their respective stats:

Simmons: 14.3 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 114 ORtg, 106 DRtg, 58.4 TS%, 30 3-point %, 61.3 FT%, .153 ws/48

Kidd: 11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 105 ORtg, 101 DRtg, 50.2 TS%, 31 3-point %, 79.9 FT%, .123 ws/48

So at the same age, Simmons was a more prolific scorer at a MUCH more efficient rate, a better rebounder, and had a much better ORtg and ws/48. Kidd was a much better facilitator, surprisingly had a slightly better defensive rating and a much better FT %. 3-point shooting for the 2 players at age 25 was irrelevant because neither was very good and Kidd made fewer than one per game.

I think you would have to be engaging KellyAnne Conway's "alternative facts" to conclude Kidd was superior to Simmons at the same age. If I've left out any stats you find more relevant, I'm open to comparing them.

So again, are we really not willing to put Anthony Edwards on the table when we have a chance to pick up a player who is clearly better than HOFer Jason Kidd at the same stage of their careers? Really?

Compare the two in their respective 5th seasons. Kidd was the more prolific scorer and had more assists per game. Their rebounding numbers were pretty close. Moreover, unlike Simmons, Kidd was a threat from behind the arc and wasn't a liability at the free-throw line. So I think Kidd was better than Simmons in their respective 5th seasons. And I think they were comparable at age 24. I significantly discount the value of a player with a huge hole in their game like Simmons when it comes to perimeter and free-throw shooting. My concern about Simmons is exacerbated by his passive nature.

But no matter how closely Simmons' stats resemble Jason Kidd's at any point in their respective careers, I'm not interested in trading Edwards for Simmons. I would, however, trade Michael Finley and Sam Cassell for Simmons. :)

[Monster]

I'll take Jason Kidd (B) over Simmons (A) - He had more assists, more steals and fewer turnovers per game and was a decent threat behind the arc because he was willing to take those shots and actually hit a respectable 35% of them.

But I'll add that this comparison is a bit misleading. First, you left out Simmons' 59.7% free-throw shooting compared to Kidd's career 78.5%. More importantly, you were comparisons career stats, which means they include Jason Kidd's stats for a number of years well past his prime. Let's look at Jason Kidd's stats when he was 24 years old like Simmons:

11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.2 TOPG, 50.2% TS.

How about Kidd's stats when he was 25 in his 5th season like Simmons:

16.9 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 10.8 APG, 36.6% 3-pt shooting, 75.7% FT on 4.8 attempts (same number of attempts as Simmons)

I don't recall what Dallas got in return when they traded him to the Suns or what the Suns got when they traded him to New Jersey or what New Jersey got when they traded him to Dallas.

Lip, I'm trying to understand your point about comparing Kidd and Simmons at age 24, but let's lay out their respective stats:

Simmons: 14.3 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 114 ORtg, 106 DRtg, 58.4 TS%, 30 3-point %, 61.3 FT%, .153 ws/48

Kidd: 11.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 9.1 APG, 105 ORtg, 101 DRtg, 50.2 TS%, 31 3-point %, 79.9 FT%, .123 ws/48

So at the same age, Simmons was a more prolific scorer at a MUCH more efficient rate, a better rebounder, and had a much better ORtg and ws/48. Kidd was a much better facilitator, surprisingly had a slightly better defensive rating and a much better FT %. 3-point shooting for the 2 players at age 25 was irrelevant because neither was very good and Kidd made fewer than one per game.

I think you would have to be engaging KellyAnne Conway's "alternative facts" to conclude Kidd was superior to Simmons at the same age. If I've left out any stats you find more relevant, I'm open to comparing them.

So again, are we really not willing to put Anthony Edwards on the table when we have a chance to pick up a player who is clearly better than HOFer Jason Kidd at the same stage of their careers? Really?

Compare the two in their respective 5th seasons. Kidd was the more prolific scorer and had more assists per game. Their rebounding numbers were pretty close. Moreover, unlike Simmons, Kidd was a threat from behind the arc and wasn't a liability at the free-throw line. So I think Kidd was better than Simmons in their respective 5th seasons. And I think they were comparable at age 24. I significantly discount the value of a player with a huge hole in their game like Simmons when it comes to perimeter and free-throw shooting. My concern about Simmons is exacerbated by his passive nature.

But no matter how closely Simmons' stats resemble Jason Kidd's at any point in their respective careers, I'm not interested in trading Edwards for Simmons. I would, however, trade Michael Finley and Sam Cassell for Simmons. :)

Lip if we were able to get the players Finley and Cassell were after they were traded to Dallas I might actually not make that deal. Those guys were both good for a number of years. I know I'm biased because I liked Cassell ever since he got his opportunity as a starting PG and yes he had his flaws but Finely was a guy I would really like to have on my team.

[FNG]

Great, we're comparing Ben Simmons to Shaquille O'Neal in this thread. What could go wrong?

Edit: I'm being facetious here if it wasn't totally obvious. I meant it in a harmless way.

I know you're being facetious. And I also know you recognize we're not comparing Simmons to Shaq, because they are totally different players. But what we are comparing in this thread is two potential offenses...the Lake Show with Shaq and the Wolves after a hypothetical deal of Ant for Simmons. I'm refuting the narrative that a guy who never takes a 3-pointer (Simmons) is a detriment to the offense because he hurts spacing, because that was never a problem with Shaq's Lakers.

Compare the situation, not the players.