Minnesota Sports Forum

I think we are all forgetting so much context when it comes to this trade. Wiggins was considered the "worst contract in the NBA", it wasn't a question if the Wolves would have to add a 1st round pick to dump Wiggins it was a question if they would need to add 2 1st to add Wiggins. The Wolves were going through a 13 game losing streak when Wiggins was traded. You read that right a 13 game losing streak. Our Star Kat was complaining massively during games, complain at every call, there were moments that were caught that he would yell at Saunders when he would be pulled during games and he was vocal about not liking when the Wolves traded RoCo. (On a side not RoCo has been bad this year). The Wolves needed to do something because our "Star" was showing massive signs of Timberwolves fatigue.

Now to the trade, the only person I will not rip about using massive hindsight is Cool because if you said you didn't want to do the trade that is fine but what were we going to do. Not trade Wiggins, ok then we suck this year and we are another step closer to trading Kat demanding a trade. Lip brought up the idea of trading for Baum but the issue there is who knows if the Hornets would of wanted to do that. If they added Wiggins they would not of had the cap to bring in Hayward and I am guessing they would rather have Hayward then Wiggins. Also even if the wolves brought in Batum the Wolves would be even more shitty now and the only difference is the Wolves would have there pick this year.(That is assuming the Wolves wouldn't of had to attach a 1st to even dump Wiggins for Batum). The Reason I will not rip Cool forever on not doing the trade for Dlo is he said he would just blow the whole thing up and trade Kat also. He said that we are in a unwinnable spot so start the rebuild early. I might disagree but I can't rip Cool for having that opinion. The Wolves gambled on Dlo who is Kat's friend, who was coming off an All Star season who was the best player on a playoff team. Now in hindsight that might of been Dlo outlier season. Rosas gambled on the talent of Kat because if he didn't change it up the Wolves would be in shitty spot also. How I see it Wolves making that trade the Wolves had a 25% chance of succeeding with Kat and Dlo. If the Wolves do not make that or make a trade for a player like Batum (Not even sure if possible) the Wolves have a 0% chance at succeeding with Kat.

Now with the Spellman and Evans part of it all. If you are going to rip Rosas for taking swings on Spellman and Evans you also have to rip Rosas for taking a swing at Vanderbilt. All 3 really had shown no NBA ability with Spellman showing the most in his NBA career. I will not blame Rosas for taking random wild swings at a former 1st round pick in Evans and a guy who showed a little something in Spellman. If you rip it I want you all to rip adding Vanderbilt to the RoCo trade because it is the same concept but Vanderbilt might actually work out. I completely understand the Lux Tax argument adding in Evans and Spellman, my counter is Rosas wasn't wrong adding Evans and Spellman. Rosas big mistake was he was unable to get a buyout of Turner. That is the big thing, that is where the ripping belongs not adding Evans and Spellman. It really hurts that the Wolves and Rosas is Rosas has traded for 4 players that are out of the league not even a year later in Crabbe, Turner, Spellman and Evans. Spellman and Evans make sense the other 2 had legit no upside to them and Turner really killed the wolves when they couldn't come to a buyout agreement.

Now on to Wiggins. It is crazy what changing places to a winning culture and joining 2 future HOF and 1 probably top 10 player in the NBA will do to your image. Wiggins was the worst contract in the NBA now every one is like damn Wiggins is doing pretty damn well in GS. He isnt he is the same fucking player he was with Minnesota but the narrative has changed on him from him needed to be a star in Minnesota to him needed to just fit in in GS. He is the same fucking player. His pts, FG%, 2ptFG%, FT%, Rebs, Asts, PER, OWS, DWS, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP are all down or virtually the same as Wiggins last year in Minnesota. The only things that are up are his blks and his 3pt %. Even on the 3pt% Wiggins made 36% of his 3s on his 1st 100 attempts last year, this year he is on pace to make 40% of his 1st 100 attempts. He is currently 33 of 81. So if he gets to 40% through his 1st 100 3pt attempts it is a grand total of 4 3s difference compared to last years 1st 100 attempts. It is crazy what changing teams and not having to be the guy can change a persons narrative. He is the exact same player in GS and he was with Minnesota.

Wolves are here today because of a couple of things. Terrible drafting, like I posted last week I can make an argument when it comes to the Wolves that in the last 5 years when it comes to just talent and not where they were drafted Kris Dunn might be the Wolves most talented player in terms of getting wins in the last 5 years. That is pathetic and that is the main reason why the Wolves are where they are today. Also Wiggins not living up to the max. It is hindsight to say the Wolves shouldn't of given Wiggins the max. I did this last year and went back to that thread when Wiggins was given the max and if I remember right only Abe was sort of down on it. Lip even had a quote in there saying he would rather give Wiggins the max then Embiid (I am just giving you shit Lip, but it proves how much hindsight can play into things). Wiggins not improving was the killer of this rebuild.

Also it is crazy to me that people still think the Butler trade killed the Wolves but then are mad that we traded for Dlo. Dlo and Lavine are the same player. Offensively skilled players that suck at defense and haven't contributed and ounce to winning basketball throughout their careers besides what looks like one outlier season from Dlo. So we gambled on an outlier season and Kats friend in a time where the wolves were on a 13 game losing streak and our star was pissed. In the end that is how we are here today but I understand the gamble because I believed in Kats talent at the time and I still do today.

*Sorry I just wrote a book

kek, the worst contract in the NBA is a subjective matter and while some might have said Wiggins was worst, I always thought DLO's contract was equally as bad. I remember arguing with you and Cam about DLO's contract being crazy bad and you and Cam defended DLO's contract.

KG4Ever wrote:kek, the worst contract in the NBA is a subjective matter and while some might have said Wiggins was worst, I always thought DLO's contract was equally as bad. I remember arguing with you and Cam about DLO's contract being crazy bad and you and Cam defended DLO's contract.

Dlo might end up being a terrible contract also. The main point of the Wolves needed to do something, Wolves were going to need to attach at least 1 pick to dump Wiggins, we gambled on Dlo. I said the odds of winning with Kat were 25% the odds of winning if nothing was done 0%

Kek I usually don't read posts that are this long, but for some reason I took the time to read yours. In hindsight signing Wiggins to the max was a bad move, though I still think it was damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I don't think you can pin our failures on just one or a few gaffes. There are literally dozens of reasons why we have been so inept for so long. I'm not going to list them here but they have all been discussed in this space.

You're right in that I did advocate for blowing it up last year, and I'm still as you know on that train. I believe Q was also supporting trading KAT last year. And as I wrote last night, the absence of hope is what bothers me the most. I see some posters are still bargaining with themselves that this KAT-DLO era can be successful. I know that it can't. I knew it at the time of the trade last year, and I especially know it now seeing that Edwards isn't a savior.

Just give me something to hope for. I don't want to wait another couple years to have a glimmer of optimism about the franchise. I can't remember the outlook ever being as poor as it is right now. Change is needed, as embarrassing as that may sound.

For the record I opposed both the Butler trade and DLO trade but for completely different reasons. I opposed the Butler trade because Butler was an older player whose timeframe didn't mesh with the Wolves core and he was on a short term contract and I feared he would walk. He also was a chronically injured player. I thought Butler was an elite talent but I preferred that we go after young talent.
DLO is nowhere close to an elite talent and I always viewed his all-star appearance as very flukey (fill-in all-star for East and perhaps a good-will gesture by Adam Silver to Brooklyn Nets which suffered from fiasco of trade with Boston in year where half the teams in the East seemed to be tanking for Zion and putting would-be starters on long term rest). Giving up the draft picks to get DLO made no sense to me when I don't think the disparity between Wiggins and DLO warranted it.

kekgeek1 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:kek, the worst contract in the NBA is a subjective matter and while some might have said Wiggins was worst, I always thought DLO's contract was equally as bad. I remember arguing with you and Cam about DLO's contract being crazy bad and you and Cam defended DLO's contract.

Dlo might end up being a terrible contract also. The main point of the Wolves needed to do something, Wolves were going to need to attach at least 1 pick to dump Wiggins, we gambled on Dlo. I said the odds of winning with Kat were 25% the odds of winning if nothing was done 0%

"Might?" I think DLO's contract is unquestionably terrible now. "Needed to do something?" Not really, Wiggins never became the two way star that the team hoped he would become, but he wasn't a troublemaker and he didn't have to be moved, especially in a bad trade like the DLO deal. If we had kept our picks (not done DLO deal), our odds would be substantially better. Neither Wiggins nor DLO can carry a team or even earn their salary, but a high pick in a quality draft certainly could.

Shortcuts don't work for a small market team like the Wolves. Keep drafting for talent and Wolves may have a chance if they stop trading away their draft picks and hit on more of them.

I was the guy behind the Batum trade. And it wasn't because I wanted Batum in Minnesota.

I just think it speaks volumes to where Wiggins' contract value was at the time. It was not good. At all. I figured the Hornets might bite because some questionably run, middling organizations might be willing to take a flyer on a guy needing a change of scenery. They did... only they went with the injury risk instead... Gordon Hayward. They outsmarted me.

As for Batum and the Wolves... he wasn't going to help in a lost season anyway. So the Wolves could have continued their "soft tank" last year. Avoided huge pushback from the fans by unloading Wiggins. And then worked to unload Batum's large expiring deal this season.

It's 100% hindsight...

But I do like the idea of Towns, the 2020 #1 pick and the team's 2021 #1 pick over what we're looking at now. Heck, I'd probably even be more excited about Edwards in that scenario. I get him as a Promise of Hope #2... I don't get him as a #3 on a team where the #2 and #3 players' are taking 35 shots away from Towns every night on a team built entirely for offense.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I was the guy behind the Batum trade. And it wasn't because I wanted Batum in Minnesota.

I just think it speaks volumes to where Wiggins' contract value was at the time. It was not good. At all. I figured the Hornets might bite because some questionably run, middling organizations might be willing to take a flyer on a guy needing a change of scenery. They did... only they went with the injury risk instead... Gordon Hayward. They outsmarted me.

As for Batum and the Wolves... he wasn't going to help in a lost season anyway. So the Wolves could have continued their "soft tank" last year. Avoided huge pushback from the fans by unloading Wiggins. And then worked to unload Batum's large expiring deal this season.

It's 100% hindsight...

But I do like the idea of Towns, the 2020 #1 pick and the team's 2021 #1 pick over what we're looking at now. Heck, I'd probably even be more excited about Edwards in that scenario. I get him as a Promise of Hope #2... I don't get him as a #3 on a team where the #2 and #3 players' are taking 35 shots away from Towns every night on a team built entirely for offense.

I think in theory, I would rather have Kat, 2020 #1 and 2021 #1 (still is possible, with Dlo on roster also, haha). I just Kat forces his way out, its so easy to do nowadays. Kat was complaining so much to refs before the trade. Kat was doing his little selfish things, Kat effort was going away. I just think if we traded Wiggins for Batum (I know he is just a contract placeholder), Kat pretty much quits.

Obviously I could be wrong but I think that is were it was going. I think trading for Dlo might of saved the Wolves a season or 2 to try and build around Kat. I don't think the wolves could of done that bringing back a player like Batum.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Kek I usually don't read posts that are this long, but for some reason I took the time to read yours. In hindsight signing Wiggins to the max was a bad move, though I still think it was damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I don't think you can pin our failures on just one or a few gaffes. There are literally dozens of reasons why we have been so inept for so long. I'm not going to list them here but they have all been discussed in this space.

You're right in that I did advocate for blowing it up last year, and I'm still as you know on that train. I believe Q was also supporting trading KAT last year. And as I wrote last night, the absence of hope is what bothers me the most. I see some posters are still bargaining with themselves that this KAT-DLO era can be successful. I know that it can't. I knew it at the time of the trade last year, and I especially know it now seeing that Edwards isn't a savior.

Just give me something to hope for. I don't want to wait another couple years to have a glimmer of optimism about the franchise. I can't remember the outlook ever being as poor as it is right now. Change is needed, as embarrassing as that may sound.

I was not as big of a Wiggins guy as you but I was in his camp a foot in his camp. Obviously more issues then just Wiggins has happened since Kat came into the league just think Wiggins contract was a killer. He didn't improve, you can make an argument he regressed and his contract became a toxic contract. I do think its neck and neck between his contract and our drafts of the #1 reason why the Wolves are in the spot they are today.

That is why I don't go after you on the Dlo takes because you said lets just blow the whole thing up. What I think was an option. Like I said I think adding Dlo gave a small % of making it work with Kat. I think not trading Wiggins there was a 0%. It sucks where the wolves are at. I respect the opinion of blowing it up last year even though I disagree with some of it.

I was for the Butler trade, for the Wiggins/DLO trade, and can't remember what I thought about the Wiggins max other than probably accepting reality at the time. Everyone here knows I was never much of a Wiggins fan.

Butler turned out badly although he more than anyone helped break the playoff drought, which shouldn't be forgotten. Also, for those of you who aren't season ticket holders and are championship or bust, I can assure you that season ticketholders certainly did give a damn about being competitive at home, having a winning record, and getting into the playoffs. That was a BIG deal for this franchise after years and years of ineptitude.

I think most of us were eyes-wide-open about DLO. He's just worse than even imagined to me. Now I don't think he's a totally useless player. Similar to Wiggins, he's just almost impossible to integrate into a proper role when he is the 2nd highest paid player and one of our "team leaders" as envisioned by the front office. How do you take a guy with his attitude, paycheck, and air cover from above and tell him his best role should be coming off the bench as a backup combo guard?