Minnesota Sports Forum

The PPG and shooting % are worse than I would have expected coming into the season, even if we had known Ricky was going to be out after 2 games. But there are some very good combined stats for our PGs too. Through 5 games, they are averaging 16 assists per game against only 4.5 TOs...pretty damn good. I don't think many of us would have forecast those numbers had we known Ricky was going to get hurt. The PGs largely have played good defense, and assisted well while protecting the ball. They are far down my blame list for our early season woes.

longstrangetrip wrote:The PPG and shooting % are worse than I would have expected coming into the season, even if we had known Ricky was going to be out after 2 games. But there are some very good combined stats for our PGs too. Through 5 games, they are averaging 16 assists per game against only 4.5 TOs...pretty damn good. I don't think many of us would have forecast those numbers had we known Ricky was going to get hurt. The PGs largely have played good defense, and assisted well while protecting the ball. They are far down my blame list for our early season woes.

Huh. They only have 48 total assists combined.

That's fewer than 10 per game. To be fair, you also added a few TOs... They're only averaging 3.2 per game. But I think TOs can be an overrated stat. (Terrell Brandon taught me that.)

You want PGs to be able to create. I don't think that's where the offense is coming from right now.

Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The result has been our PGs are improvising less with the ball in their hands and instead deferring to the "Big Three" to do more. Unfortunately, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn for that matter) are not nearly the playmakers as Rubio is.

We're in a bit of a tough spot because most top teams in the past that were highly reliant on wings for their offense had wings that could score AND facilitate: Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, McGrady, Ginobilli, Wade, LeBron, etc.

I think it's something we can eventually work around offensively, but I believe this shift (along with having Dunn run the offense for now) has partially led to some of the stagnant offensive stretches.

Edit: Just to add on to this point. Here is the usage % of our three PGs:

Dunn - 16%
Jones - 14%
Rubio - 10% (by far a career low)

Meanwhile, the KAT-Wiggins-LaVine trio are all well above 20%. Now assists don't go into the usage equation, but FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers do. It's a good proxy for "touches" in my opinion. Clearly, our PGs are not a big part of the offense right now, other than getting the ball up court.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:The PPG and shooting % are worse than I would have expected coming into the season, even if we had known Ricky was going to be out after 2 games. But there are some very good combined stats for our PGs too. Through 5 games, they are averaging 16 assists per game against only 4.5 TOs...pretty damn good. I don't think many of us would have forecast those numbers had we known Ricky was going to get hurt. The PGs largely have played good defense, and assisted well while protecting the ball. They are far down my blame list for our early season woes.

Huh. They only have 48 total assists combined.

That's fewer than 10 per game. To be fair, you also added a few TOs... They're only averaging 3.2 per game. But I think TOs can be an overrated stat. (Terrell Brandon taught me that.)

You want PGs to be able to create. I don't think that's where the offense is coming from right now.

My post was intended to show the very good assist to TO ratio out PGs have to date (not something we could have expected based on Dunn's poor college ratio. Here are the APG and TOPG numbers for the four PGs.

Rubio: 6.5 1.5
Dunn 4.6 2.0
Jones 3.7 1.0
Lucas 1.0 0

Faulty math to add them all together, but still the almost 4:1 ratio is very good by any standard.

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The result has been our PGs are improvising less with the ball in their hands and instead deferring to the "Big Three" to do more. Unfortunately, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn for that matter) are not nearly the playmakers as Rubio is.

We're in a bit of a tough spot because most top teams in the past that were highly reliant on wings for their offense had wings that could score AND facilitate: Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, McGrady, Ginobilli, Wade, LeBron, etc.

I think it's something we can eventually work around offensively, but I believe this shift (along with having Dunn run the offense for now) has partially led to some of the stagnant offensive stretches.

Edit: Just to add on to this point. Here is the usage % of our three PGs:

Dunn - 16%
Jones - 14%
Rubio - 10% (by far a career low)

Meanwhile, the KAT-Wiggins-LaVine trio are all well above 20%. Now assists don't go into the usage equation, but FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers do. It's a good proxy for "touches" in my opinion. Clearly, our PGs are not a big part of the offense right now, other than getting the ball up court.

Interesting post thanks for those usage numbers. I will be interested to see how they play out as the season goes on.

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The tunnel vision I've complained about is based on the last two games, where KAT clearly decided he was going to get "his". In those two games he's averaged 1 assist. With these small sample sizes I think we need to be careful about using stats to make our arguments.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The result has been our PGs are improvising less with the ball in their hands and instead deferring to the "Big Three" to do more. Unfortunately, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn for that matter) are not nearly the playmakers as Rubio is.

We're in a bit of a tough spot because most top teams in the past that were highly reliant on wings for their offense had wings that could score AND facilitate: Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, McGrady, Ginobilli, Wade, LeBron, etc.

I think it's something we can eventually work around offensively, but I believe this shift (along with having Dunn run the offense for now) has partially led to some of the stagnant offensive stretches.

Edit: Just to add on to this point. Here is the usage % of our three PGs:

Dunn - 16%
Jones - 14%
Rubio - 10% (by far a career low)

Meanwhile, the KAT-Wiggins-LaVine trio are all well above 20%. Now assists don't go into the usage equation, but FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers do. It's a good proxy for "touches" in my opinion. Clearly, our PGs are not a big part of the offense right now, other than getting the ball up court.

Interesting post thanks for those usage numbers. I will be interested to see how they play out as the season goes on.

Yeah, great post Q. I don't have a problem with Thibs running his offense through the Big 3 with Ricky out, but I think it's a flawed strategy when he comes back.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The tunnel vision I've complained about is based on the last two games, where KAT clearly decided he was going to get "his". In those two games he's averaged 1 assist. With these small sample sizes I think we need to be careful about using stats to make our arguments.

I'm not denying that he hasn't exhibited tunnel vision - I've seen it too. And not just in the last couple of games. Even in the game where he had 4 assists. The larger point is that the offense is running through these guys a lot more, giving them a ton more opportunities to get assists in the first place. One could argue KAT should be getting even more assists.

Wiggins and LaVine are even worse....These guys consistently settle for some really tough shots when an extra pass would be merited.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The result has been our PGs are improvising less with the ball in their hands and instead deferring to the "Big Three" to do more. Unfortunately, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn for that matter) are not nearly the playmakers as Rubio is.

We're in a bit of a tough spot because most top teams in the past that were highly reliant on wings for their offense had wings that could score AND facilitate: Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, McGrady, Ginobilli, Wade, LeBron, etc.

I think it's something we can eventually work around offensively, but I believe this shift (along with having Dunn run the offense for now) has partially led to some of the stagnant offensive stretches.

Edit: Just to add on to this point. Here is the usage % of our three PGs:

Dunn - 16%
Jones - 14%
Rubio - 10% (by far a career low)

Meanwhile, the KAT-Wiggins-LaVine trio are all well above 20%. Now assists don't go into the usage equation, but FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers do. It's a good proxy for "touches" in my opinion. Clearly, our PGs are not a big part of the offense right now, other than getting the ball up court.

Interesting post thanks for those usage numbers. I will be interested to see how they play out as the season goes on.

Yeah, great post Q. I don't have a problem with Thibs running his offense through the Big 3 with Ricky out, but I think it's a flawed strategy when he comes back.

I think he's trying to reduce his dependency on Ricky and get these other guys to develop their play making skills. Perhaps in the long run, it's not a bad strategy. Where Ricky is still vital though is in transition offense. He has an advanced understanding of spacing and almost always makes the right decision.

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, One thing I noticed - and this was the case even in Rubio's two games - is that Thibs seems to be running a lot more pick and roll with either Wiggins or LaVine as the ball handlers. KAT is also initiating the offense more often. What's funny is how we've complained about KAT's tunnel vision at times, yet he is averaging 3 assists per game, more than Wiggins and LaVine!

The result has been our PGs are improvising less with the ball in their hands and instead deferring to the "Big Three" to do more. Unfortunately, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn for that matter) are not nearly the playmakers as Rubio is.

We're in a bit of a tough spot because most top teams in the past that were highly reliant on wings for their offense had wings that could score AND facilitate: Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, McGrady, Ginobilli, Wade, LeBron, etc.

I think it's something we can eventually work around offensively, but I believe this shift (along with having Dunn run the offense for now) has partially led to some of the stagnant offensive stretches.

Edit: Just to add on to this point. Here is the usage % of our three PGs:

Dunn - 16%
Jones - 14%
Rubio - 10% (by far a career low)

Meanwhile, the KAT-Wiggins-LaVine trio are all well above 20%. Now assists don't go into the usage equation, but FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers do. It's a good proxy for "touches" in my opinion. Clearly, our PGs are not a big part of the offense right now, other than getting the ball up court.

Interesting post thanks for those usage numbers. I will be interested to see how they play out as the season goes on.

Yeah, great post Q. I don't have a problem with Thibs running his offense through the Big 3 with Ricky out, but I think it's a flawed strategy when he comes back.

I think he's trying to reduce his dependency on Ricky and get these other guys to develop their play making skills. Perhaps in the long run, it's not a bad strategy. Where Ricky is still vital though is in transition offense. He has an advanced understanding of spacing and almost always makes the right decision.

Ultimately you want those 3 guys making plays espcielly when it comes to late game and down the road in playoff situations. That doesn't mean Rubio can't be useful but realistically you gotta give those guys opportunities to do stuff with the ball. On the other hand Rubio is really good as a player with the ball in his hands making plays for others. To some extent there will be an interesting balance if he is the guy at PG long term. Rubio has played as a more supporting role as a PG before in his career though too on teams he has played on outside of the NBA so he at least has experience doing that even if it doesn't play to his strengths. There will be a little different balance to be found if Dunn is the guy. At least there are talented options we aren't hoping for guys like Foye or Telfair of Ridnour to be the answer. There is even some chance Tyus COULD be a better player than all the guys I just mentioned. Man there was a real desert of PG talent there for a few years between Cassell and Rubio and before Cassell the Wolves had no problems finding PG talent it was just keeping them on the team or on the floor.