BizarroJerry wrote:None of you were complaining about this when we started out 4-2. Now some of you say we should have done this 3 weeks ago? Ha.
Heh. Then there was me, who thought for a day or two that Mitchell had absolutely gone mad. Then I did a 180 and saw the logic in the starting lineup. Now I'm wondering if a shakeup is needed, but I agree, we can be fickle creatures! I don't like Zach at PG though.- that's been a constant!
For those of you wanting to make a change to the starting lineup - and I can understand why - you need to think through the ramifications of the three main options:
Start LaVine OR Martin at the 2 Pros:
- Gets a shooter in the starting unit.
- Puts Zach in his rightful place at SG (either starting or backing up Martin), plus allows him to play with a high IQ group of players.
- Andre Miller can now quarterback our second unit and improve ball movement and offensive flow.
Cons:
- Wiggins no longer has a size mismatch.
- Our defense probably takes a hit since we're trading out Prince for Zach/Martin and we get a little smaller/less fundamentally sound.
- A Miller/Martin or LaVine/Shabazz perimeter trio might be as bad defensively as a LaVine/Martin/Shabazz perimter trio, UNLESS....
- Shabazz gets cut out of the rotation in favor of Prince as our backup SF to add some defensive chops to the second unit.
Start Shabazz at the 3 Pros:
- Gets another scorer in the starting unit that can play off of other High IQ guys.
- Creates some serious mis-match problems for opposing defenses.
- Second unit gets some balance with Prince backing up Shabazz at the 3 and enhancing our defense and ball movement with that group.
Cons:
- Our defense takes a hit with Shabazz instead of Prince starting.
- We still have spacing issues on offense because Bazz prefers to work in the paint and we really don't have any other shooters out there.
- Zach still at backup PG.
- Zach is still our backup PG.
Watching last nights game Payne kills this team off the bench. He is ball stopper and just cluess. I think that is why people miss Jeff Adrien because he was not stupid. I would rather see Hummel on this team play PF then him.
A lot of opinions here about Sam's failed experiment of starting KAT/KG/Tay/Wig/Ricky, which surprises me since in yet another game, they again either beat or played even with the other team's starters...in this case, the second best starting unit in the league. Can anyone come up with a game where Sam's preferred starting lineup has been significantly outscored? No, that lineup is working very well, and you only have to look at the lineups tab at basketball-reference to substantiate this. To call it a failed experiment is to ignore all the empirical data readily available...its defensive brilliance leads to very good results.
And despite all the handwringing about the second unit led by Zach LaVine (and I will admit they don't move the ball very well), the Wolves rank in the top five in bench scoring in the NBA, and last night, the reserves built the lead when Sam subbed them in in the first quarter (again, I will admit Detroit's second unit is terrible).
And while there are times when the Rubio/LaVine pairing has been brilliant, they have been successful mostly when lined up against very small teams (like the Indy game). Last night was the second time that pairing has failed in the 4th quarter and cost us the game (the other was the Memphis game where Sam put them out there with the score close and less than 5 minutes to go, and we lost by 8 points) Rubio/LaVine can work if used at the right times, but it is not a strategy that is going to help us often, because:
1) it forces Wig to play SF where the terrific size advantage he enjoys at the 2 disappears, and
2) if Zach becomes a regular SG, it forces Miller into more minutes at PG, where he has shown he is no longer able to compete on the defensive side of the ball (eye test only).
Go back and watch the 4th quarter last night (I just watched it), and you'll see something peculiar that I have noticed in a few other instances too...when Zach and Ricky are paired together, Zach is really the PG on offense. He's the primary ball handler, and Ricky is acting more like a SG...not a good thing. It's clear that Zach likes the ball in his hands, and for some reason, Ricky defers to him at times. When Sam does pair them together, the coaches need to remind them who the PG is in that pairing.
This team is 5-8 now, and this board pins the losing record on Sam's belief that Zach is a good backup PG and his insistence on a starting lineup that is not popular. I don't think either of these takes is correct. I think this team would be 8-5 now (and the board would be happy) if two things had happened:
1) Ricky hadn't missed those four games, and
2) KMart was performing anywhere near his historical record. When a 25 MPG high-volume shooter is shooting 7 1/2 percentage points below his career average, and 13 1/2 percentage points below on threes, and provides little else, you're going to have a difficult time winning.
Those are the two primary reasons we are 5-8. Ricky's injuries are an uncontrollable factor, but Sam needs to make a decision about Martin. I think he needs to keep giving him his minutes to see if he can progress back up to his norm, but he needs to coach him up too...he needs to tell him to rely less on that silly runner and more on 3-point shooting. And if KMart doesn't listen and continues to shoot poorly, he needs to be removed from the rotation.
I don't think it failed at all. I think it works for the starting unit for the most part but when we opened up the 2nd half last night and Prince and KG came down and worked the court together a few times I though man we are ignoring what makes this unti work with Wiggins and Towns. The big problem with it is the second unit and LaVine playing PG. When Miller is the PG on the second unit that groups is pretty decent because they score. I think a scoring second unit is more important then 1st because most second units can't score so defense is not as important in my opinion, but we don't have the correct mix on the floor for the second unit and when you add in Payne it really sucks.
When did Kevin Garnett turn into Reggie Evans? He looks far too tentative on offense and when he does shoot... well, there's that Reggie Evans comparison. I didn't expect such a drop-off to scoring irrelevance.
5.9 points per 36 minutes.
T. Prince is at 5.1 per 36 minutes. But despite those guys causing problems when on the court together... the bigger problem as mentioned is that it leaves three or even four "me-first" players on the second unit. In my opinion, Muhammad will always be one of those guys, and it's why he'll be best as a rotation guy but not a starter in this league. Martin is hunting for shots even more than usual at this point. He looks ready for a new environment. LaVine just isn't ready to facilitate. BUT, he looks ready to be a finisher.
You can have one guy hunting for shots... especially when he's playing with unselfish players. Put him on the court with Rubio and Garnett... let him learn to move and shoot when open... and you can take advantage of the skills he's been showing over the first few weeks of the season.
Personally, I think it's time for the move. The team is looking at 50 losses... again. Fine. But at least find out where the future is. Put LaVine on the court with Towns, Rubio and Wiggins and find out what the future MIGHT hold.
That makes sense to me. But to lose 50 games and go into next season with "where does LaVine fit in" questions seems like a worst-case scenario.
bleedspeed177 wrote:I don't think it failed at all. I think it works for the starting unit for the most part but when we opened up the 2nd half last night and Prince and KG came down and worked the court together a few times I though man we are ignoring what makes this unti work with Wiggins and Towns. The big problem with it is the second unit and LaVine playing PG. When Miller is the PG on the second unit that groups is pretty decent because they score. I think a scoring second unit is more important then 1st because most second units can't score so defense is not as important in my opinion, but we don't have the correct mix on the floor for the second unit and when you add in Payne it really sucks.
You nailed it about what happened in the 3rd quarter last night, bleed. The reason that lineup has been so successful is that they play great defense, and focus on getting KAT and Wig scoring...KG and Prince should only be facilitators in that offense, shooting only when the defense leaves them entirely alone. But last night on successive plays, the Wolves ran plays designed for Tay and KG to operate 1 on 1...WTF???? That's not the way it's supposed to work, and getting away from Wig and KAT led to coughing up the lead.
I don't agree with you on Zach leading the second until, of course. Check out the lineups tab at basketball-reference. Zach was terrible in the 4 games where he started in place of Ricky, but his +/- numbers and numbers in general are very good when teamed with guys like Belly, KMart, Bazz and Dieng. It's not a team-based offense, mostly one-on-one stuff, but if you look at the stats, it works (albeit better when Martin isn't shooting 25%). I'm not on board with Miller leading the second unit. When he was forced into big minutes against Memphis, his defensive shortcomings were exposed...the guy just can't be relied on to play any defense anymore, and that's not the identity of this team anymore.
I have about ten things I didn't like, just not sure where to start.
Dump Rudez, we can't afford to waste another roster spot on a guy who can't seem to do the one thing he was brought here for. See ya Robbie!
Stop making wholesale lineup substitutions. We should always keep at least two starters on the floor.
If you are going to play Shabazz, getting him the ball on the offensive end. He will always be a black hole if the ball never goes through him, and he has zero value in scenario.
Dieng is an idiot. Give all his minutes to Payne and see if we can't salvage one backup.
Zach is completely useless as a PG, but if you truly believe he will continue to backup Rubio, one of Tyus or Andre should go.
Prince is playing way too many minutes for what he can give us.
Start posting Towns a lot more and playing off of him, and for gods sake, stop running our offense through Gorgi. Like Pek, he can't even face the basket to make a pass from 20 feet.
We need a healthy PG on this team going forward, and it would help if he could hit a shot, but if you can't, STOP taking jumpers with 15 seconds on the shot clock. So much for working on his jumper. Maybe hire a real shooting coach that would fix his mechanics.
Bring back Jeff Adrien back, he truly was a guy that didn't hurt us while on the floor.
That was the worst game I have witnessed since last season. The majority of the team showed zero enthusiasm, and Taylor should refund every dollar he collected last night.
Ok, I have to award a Hanging Albatross for this bad loss, and there are several candidates. Ricky had a poor game based on the eye test, but 12 and 7 isn't too bad. Bazz had a terrible game, 0-3 in 17 minutes, but I'm not going to give it to him 2 games in a row. So the winner tonight is....Kevin Martin.
While he was surprisingly our leading rebounder last night, his continued reliance on the runner while trying ZERO 3-point shots gives him the award. Here's what AP Guy tweeted about him:
"Kevin Martin's last three games: 10-38 FG (28%) 1-10 3's, 38 points. That's just not the Kevin Martin that has been in this league for so long".
I agree. KMart has been terrible as of late and is the main reason for our losing, but absent some tangible reason for this performance, it has to be considered a slump that he is bound to break out of. KMart is hurting us and gets the HA tonight, but he is also the reason for some hope...he just can't keep shooting this poorly.
I finished watching the game a while ago I haven't read any posts. Here are my thoughts and I may end up stealing a couple formats... 2+2 is what I am going with
1. Offense was brutally bad at times. One time I remember clearly Wiggins and a big were literally just standing outside the 3 point line while a few offensively challenged players did something. It was terrible and the blame can go all around from players to coaches but I'll relax a bit because this team has been focused on defense so I'll give everyone a bit of a pass.
2. Dieng was frustrating to watch. He just didn't finish plays. He seems to not be strong enough at times. What makes him frustrating is there is some legit ability he just flat out botches stuff at times. He continues to be the Brewer of centers.
1. Martin played a different game last night IMO he hunted shots not fouls and I thought for the most part picked his spots much better. His defense was about as good as you can ever expect and he deserves props for even being willing to take that charge from Bynes how is a large man. Martin has been willing to give up his body like that going back to preseason. I actually think him guarding SFs at times isn't the worst thing in the world in some small ball lineups. The way he moves and the way his body is makes his lateral quickness a problem which is less at that position and while he gives up girth so does some other guys.
2. Payne was a mixed bag but still trended towards a positive player. He continues to get my hopes up. What I really find intruiging is how he is able to move his feet against perimeter guys when he is switched on them. He isn't always successful but you can see that he has the physical tools there which is something.
