Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:Long, are we seriously arguing here that either KG or Prince are net positives in REAL games? I see the numbers, but what I see on TV certainly resembles nothing short of a couple hot turds. I can't explain the numbers, other than the fact that they play very sporadic minutes, and always with the best players on the team playing next to them. Based on the numbers, you would think these two guys are leading this team in productive minutes....and I LOUDLY disagree.

Are people seriously still OK with KG making $8.5MM this season and a guaranteed $8MM next? It is CRAZY!!!!! He is freakin' abysmal!!!! And I will state again that when the extended losing happens....and it will....the KG mentor thing will go out the door. He will obtain the same loser mentality of this team. Our only saving grace is that I have to believe that KG will retire after this season, thus foregoing his contract next year.

I'm glad there's still sane beings on this board. Hicks is exactly right here. Isn't it ironic how the two highest +/- on the team come from the two guys that only play their minutes with the three best players on the team? It's the other three (Rubio, Towns, Wiggins ?) that have been doing the heavy lifting in those minutes, which make KG and Prince's +/- look better than it really is.

And yes, KG's contract is absurd. I've argued that plenty of times, but I either get told "we had no other way to spend the money" or "you're just not understanding everything KG brings to the table", both of which are laughable retorts.

Well, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I'm not going to comment on the relative sanity of Hicks, you and me. But I will say that Hicks' and your math and logic skills may be a little lacking.

You argue that the plus 12.6 per 35 for both Tay and KG is because of the other three starters. If that were true and Tay and KG are really stiffs, wouldn't logic dictate that Rubio, Wig and KAT's +/- numbers would go up when they are playing with players other than Tay and KG? But in fact, their number go way down, and in the case of Wig and KAT, their +/- plummets dramatically when KG and Tay leave the court. Wig and KAT play about 30 minutes a game, and since they start each half with KG and Tay, only about half of those minutes are with the two vets...and we can assume that their +/- in those minutes approximates the glossy numbers Tay and KG are putting up since they are on the court together. Ergo, Wig and KAT have a much worse +/- playing with the players who sub in for Tay and KG. It looks to me like KG and Tay are buoying up the numbers of the other three starters, rather than the other way around that you are suggesting.

KG and Tay are not going to put up offensive numbers...that's not their role. They are charged with setting a defensive tone and facilitating for our offensive stars, and the numbers say that so far they are handling their job with aplomb. I see tour statement that the heavy lifting on the starters is being done by the other three starters, but I can't find numbers that help me understand that conclusion. What am I missing here?

Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

monsterpile wrote:Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

Monster, I agree with the KG and Prince detractors if we narrowly define offense as just scoring...the two vets just aren't going to score much. Not their jobs. But while the object of offense is scoring, there is so much more that happens before the ball goes through the net, and KG and Tay are instrumental in making this happen...moving the ball, ensuring proper spacing, setting picks, etc. I notice that even though they are not scoring, defenses aren't leaving Tay and KG alone. They know that if they do that, KH will pop the dreaded long two that he has made a career out of and Tay will his the open corner three. The two vets are big contributors to our defensive improvement, but they are also playing the roles on offense they are being asked to play.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

Monster, I agree with the KG and Prince detractors if we narrowly define offense as just scoring...the two vets just aren't going to score much. Not their jobs. But while the object of offense is scoring, there is so much more that happens before the ball goes through the net, and KG and Tay are instrumental in making this happen...moving the ball, ensuring proper spacing, setting picks, etc. I notice that even though they are not scoring, defenses aren't leaving Tay and KG alone. They know that if they do that, KH will pop the dreaded long two that he has made a career out of and Tay will his the open corner three. The two vets are big contributors to our defensive improvement, but they are also playing the roles on offense they are being asked to play.

Offense is scoring what the hell are you talking about? What is the definition of offense if it isn't scoring? How is 4 points a game combined on 25 percent not a huge liability? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of a guy giving up 35 points a night but it's cool because he averages 15 points on 50% shooting?

alexftbl8181 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

Monster, I agree with the KG and Prince detractors if we narrowly define offense as just scoring...the two vets just aren't going to score much. Not their jobs. But while the object of offense is scoring, there is so much more that happens before the ball goes through the net, and KG and Tay are instrumental in making this happen...moving the ball, ensuring proper spacing, setting picks, etc. I notice that even though they are not scoring, defenses aren't leaving Tay and KG alone. They know that if they do that, KH will pop the dreaded long two that he has made a career out of and Tay will his the open corner three. The two vets are big contributors to our defensive improvement, but they are also playing the roles on offense they are being asked to play.

Offense is scoring what the hell are you talking about? What is the definition of offense if it isn't scoring? How is 4 points a game combined on 25 percent not a huge liability? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of a guy giving up 35 points a night but it's cool because he averages 15 points on 50% shooting?

The parts I bolded above are also part of running an offense. Spacing, ball movement, and picks grease the skids.

I'm not going to defend Prince and KG as superior offensive weapons individually - and I don't think anyone is claiming that - but the fact that they are paving the way for the other guys to get good looks doesn't make them completely hopeless.

Q12543 wrote:

alexftbl8181 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

Monster, I agree with the KG and Prince detractors if we narrowly define offense as just scoring...the two vets just aren't going to score much. Not their jobs. But while the object of offense is scoring, there is so much more that happens before the ball goes through the net, and KG and Tay are instrumental in making this happen...moving the ball, ensuring proper spacing, setting picks, etc. I notice that even though they are not scoring, defenses aren't leaving Tay and KG alone. They know that if they do that, KH will pop the dreaded long two that he has made a career out of and Tay will his the open corner three. The two vets are big contributors to our defensive improvement, but they are also playing the roles on offense they are being asked to play.

Offense is scoring what the hell are you talking about? What is the definition of offense if it isn't scoring? How is 4 points a game combined on 25 percent not a huge liability? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of a guy giving up 35 points a night but it's cool because he averages 15 points on 50% shooting?

The parts I bolded above are also part of running an offense. Spacing, ball movement, and picks grease the skids.

I'm not going to defend Prince and KG as superior offensive weapons individually - and I don't think anyone is claiming that - but the fact that they are paving the way for the other guys to get good looks doesn't make them completely hopeless.

Spacing has been awful. Ball movement? That's pretty much all Towns and Rubio. Picks? Who cares? That isn't worth 8 million or minutes. It's like getting excited because a QB is good at handing off

alexftbl8181 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Offensively KG and Prince might be liabilities at this point but the idea they bring basically nothing is equally absurd. If Bazz keeps up the type of play we saw against Miami he needs to come in with Bjelica with a quick hook after 4-5 minutes to start the half for Prince like KG.

Lavine he is a polarizing player. He is so inconsistent. There are moments he looks like he is doing just fine then he does something that makes him look silly and to be honest some of those bad plays might come up if he was playing SG also. I want to see a few more games and see where it goes.

Monster, I agree with the KG and Prince detractors if we narrowly define offense as just scoring...the two vets just aren't going to score much. Not their jobs. But while the object of offense is scoring, there is so much more that happens before the ball goes through the net, and KG and Tay are instrumental in making this happen...moving the ball, ensuring proper spacing, setting picks, etc. I notice that even though they are not scoring, defenses aren't leaving Tay and KG alone. They know that if they do that, KH will pop the dreaded long two that he has made a career out of and Tay will his the open corner three. The two vets are big contributors to our defensive improvement, but they are also playing the roles on offense they are being asked to play.

Offense is scoring what the hell are you talking about? What is the definition of offense if it isn't scoring? How is 4 points a game combined on 25 percent not a huge liability? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of a guy giving up 35 points a night but it's cool because he averages 15 points on 50% shooting?

Yep both guys so far when they have taken their scoring opportunities have looked their age or older too many times. I do think the other things they do supporting the offense as LST points out is worthwhile but yeah them actually scoring themselves is a liability which can be a problem. That's why I suggest the minutes for Prince could be cut for Bazz. I think it's possible over time the younger guys like Bazz can get better understanding the defensive concepts and therefore be a part of a solid defensive team and then the need for Prince in particular will be less as time goes on.

You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that

alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that

....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.

Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?

Q12543 wrote:

alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that

....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.

Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?

hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo