We will finish out of the bottom 3

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kekgeek
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by kekgeek »

lipoli390 wrote:The Wolves now have 20 wins after tonight's win over the Warriors and are in sole possession of the 4th worst record. The Thunder have 21 wins and look like they won't win another game this season as they remain in full tank mode. No question the Wolves will pass them in the standings. Note that the Cavs also have only 21 wins. I expect the Wolves to pass them in the standings as well, which will give the Wolves the 6th worst record. At this point, I'm all for the Wolves winning as many games as possible and finishing as high in the standings as they can this season. A strong finish can potentially carry over into next season. Moreover, the higher the Wolves finish in the standings, the lower the pick that goes to the Warriors. Perhaps the Wolves can even pass the Kings in the standings. The Kings currently have 25 wins and the Wolves have 8 games left.


Ya with the win the Wolves lower the Warriors chances of getting the 4th or 5th pick from 26.8% to 18.7%.

If the Wolves catch the Cavs the warriors will only have a 9.6% chance at getting the 4th pick and a 0% chance at the 5th pick. I'm loving it!

I'm liking it a lot
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Monster
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by Monster »

kekgeek1 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:The Wolves now have 20 wins after tonight's win over the Warriors and are in sole possession of the 4th worst record. The Thunder have 21 wins and look like they won't win another game this season as they remain in full tank mode. No question the Wolves will pass them in the standings. Note that the Cavs also have only 21 wins. I expect the Wolves to pass them in the standings as well, which will give the Wolves the 6th worst record. At this point, I'm all for the Wolves winning as many games as possible and finishing as high in the standings as they can this season. A strong finish can potentially carry over into next season. Moreover, the higher the Wolves finish in the standings, the lower the pick that goes to the Warriors. Perhaps the Wolves can even pass the Kings in the standings. The Kings currently have 25 wins and the Wolves have 8 games left.


Ya with the win the Wolves lower the Warriors chances of getting the 4th or 5th pick from 26.8% to 18.7%.

If the Wolves catch the Cavs the warriors will only have a 9.6% chance at getting the 4th pick and a 0% chance at the 5th pick. I'm loving it!

I'm liking it a lot


Wolves are only 8.5 games out of the playoffs. Lol having that pick be lower for the Warriors would be nice.

Ok I'll be more serious now. Let's say the Wolves even go .500 the rest of the season (I'll try not to get too carried away here) that means they would finish with 29 wins. That's not good but let's say they had won 35 games I think that would have been relatively encouraging. IF........they somehow play above .500 the last 18 games and win at least 30 games this year after the way they started...I'm not going to raise a banner or anything but it would feel like we MIGHT be heading in a positive direction.
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kekgeek
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by kekgeek »

monsterpile wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:The Wolves now have 20 wins after tonight's win over the Warriors and are in sole possession of the 4th worst record. The Thunder have 21 wins and look like they won't win another game this season as they remain in full tank mode. No question the Wolves will pass them in the standings. Note that the Cavs also have only 21 wins. I expect the Wolves to pass them in the standings as well, which will give the Wolves the 6th worst record. At this point, I'm all for the Wolves winning as many games as possible and finishing as high in the standings as they can this season. A strong finish can potentially carry over into next season. Moreover, the higher the Wolves finish in the standings, the lower the pick that goes to the Warriors. Perhaps the Wolves can even pass the Kings in the standings. The Kings currently have 25 wins and the Wolves have 8 games left.


Ya with the win the Wolves lower the Warriors chances of getting the 4th or 5th pick from 26.8% to 18.7%.

If the Wolves catch the Cavs the warriors will only have a 9.6% chance at getting the 4th pick and a 0% chance at the 5th pick. I'm loving it!

I'm liking it a lot


Wolves are only 8.5 games out of the playoffs. Lol having that pick be lower for the Warriors would be nice.

Ok I'll be more serious now. Let's say the Wolves even go .500 the rest of the season (I'll try not to get too carried away here) that means they would finish with 29 wins. That's not good but let's say they had won 35 games I think that would have been relatively encouraging. IF........they somehow play above .500 the last 18 games and win at least 30 games this year after the way they started...I'm not going to raise a banner or anything but it would feel like we MIGHT be heading in a positive direction.


Only 72 games this year monster. Only 8 games to go in the season
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Monster
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by Monster »

kekgeek1 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:The Wolves now have 20 wins after tonight's win over the Warriors and are in sole possession of the 4th worst record. The Thunder have 21 wins and look like they won't win another game this season as they remain in full tank mode. No question the Wolves will pass them in the standings. Note that the Cavs also have only 21 wins. I expect the Wolves to pass them in the standings as well, which will give the Wolves the 6th worst record. At this point, I'm all for the Wolves winning as many games as possible and finishing as high in the standings as they can this season. A strong finish can potentially carry over into next season. Moreover, the higher the Wolves finish in the standings, the lower the pick that goes to the Warriors. Perhaps the Wolves can even pass the Kings in the standings. The Kings currently have 25 wins and the Wolves have 8 games left.


Ya with the win the Wolves lower the Warriors chances of getting the 4th or 5th pick from 26.8% to 18.7%.

If the Wolves catch the Cavs the warriors will only have a 9.6% chance at getting the 4th pick and a 0% chance at the 5th pick. I'm loving it!

I'm liking it a lot


Wolves are only 8.5 games out of the playoffs. Lol having that pick be lower for the Warriors would be nice.

Ok I'll be more serious now. Let's say the Wolves even go .500 the rest of the season (I'll try not to get too carried away here) that means they would finish with 29 wins. That's not good but let's say they had won 35 games I think that would have been relatively encouraging. IF........they somehow play above .500 the last 18 games and win at least 30 games this year after the way they started...I'm not going to raise a banner or anything but it would feel like we MIGHT be heading in a positive direction.


Only 72 games this year monster. Only 8 games to go in the season


Lol oops that's right I totally forgot. It's gonna be pretty tough to get to 30 wins. ;)
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

I love winning games. I've said repeatedly this season that winning is more important than tanking to keep the pick because of the odds of keeping the pick are relatively low and thankfully they've flattened those odds and mostly because we need to change our culture of losing. And it's long been an argument of mine that tanking in general is neither an ethical route to take, nor a particularly effective one, given the extent to which luck is involved with whether or not draft picks pan out. I've actually felt like this was a bit of a minority position on this board since Sam Hinkie basically set the mould for tanking.

HOWEVER, I have to say I'm honestly a little uncomfortable with our winning right now.

First, because despite the thankfully flattened odds, I do think we've hurt our chances of getting this pick in a meaningful way. If we had ended up with the 3rd worst record, which we were basically on track to do, we'd have had a 40.1% chance of keeping the pick. At this point, with these wins and with Cleveland and OKC tanking now, it seems almost impossible that we will end up with the 4th or 5th worst record, and if we end up with the 6th worst record, we have a 29.4% chance of keeping the pick. We've been thinking of that as a 12.5% lower chance of keeping the pick, which is true; but it's also true to say that it's a 25% lower chance of keeping the pick than we'd have had if we had the 3rd worst record. Given that the Bulls and Raptors both have, at best, only one expected win on their remaining schedule, there is also a very outside chance we could fall to 7th. It's highly unlikely to happen--we'd have to win 6 or 7 of our final 8 games--but if so, we'd end up with only a 19% chance of keeping our pick, which is less than half of what our chance would have been if we'd have ended up with the 3rd worst record.

Second, as much as I'd like to be, I'm not compelled by two arguments I've seen from two posters I respect a lot here, Q and kek, and by a third I'm not sure who to attribute to.

Q has said that we not only need to consider the odds of keeping the pick, but also the odds that a pick would pan out. And he's absolutely right that we should also consider those odds too. In fact, I've long argued that we tend to put too much stock into draft picks and assume they will all work out, when in fact a lot of them flame out. HOWEVER, in this case, we are talking about only a top 3 pick in a draft in which there are at least 3 guys who seem VERY likely to be excellent players. Cade looks almost certain to be at worst a good starter, versatile two-way wings like him are incredibly valuable, and I think he'd be a perfect fit for us. Frankly, https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/1/13/22226644/2021-nba-draft-evan-mobley-uscMobley would also be a great fit for us with his length and defense, and his upside is higher--he clearly has the touch and floor awareness that Wiseman never had. Green is redundant with Ant, but seriously, imagine if we had two guys like that! Plus, while he's much thinner, Green's shot looks better. One of those guys would be a very valuable trade asset. Or you could go with Suggs. What've we been missing for years? Toughness, defense, and leadership. Check, check, check. So Q is right that we need to consider not only the odds of getting the pick, but the odds that the pick works out, but I'd say the odds of all those guys working out is probably near 100%. I'm usually pretty skeptical of the value of picks, sometimes even toward the top of the draft. There IS much more uncertainty involved than we typically want to admit. But the very top picks are almost always more valuable, and this year's top picks look like sure things.

Kek has pointed out that winning games actually worsens Golden State's potential pick from us, because it pushes it later in the lottery. This is true. But I don't care about Golden State. I care about the Timberwolves. Why should I feel happy if another team gets a worse pick because my team lost its pick? That's like being happy the other guy's car was somewhat damaged in an accident that totaled my car.

I've also heard Lip and I think somebody else kind say, well, Rosas screwed up by giving away the pick in the first place, so what can you do? First, totally agree he shouldn't have given away the pick. But he did. It's done. Yet it does still have top 3 protection on it, so for now anyway, it's like a bet. And while we agree he shouldn't have made the bet, he did make it. And for the purpose of this analogy, it's our money. So if you were in Vegas, and you and your friends pooled their money, and one friend made a dumb bet with everybody's money, you'd be right to be angry with him--but would you want to say "fuck it, let those odds get longer?" No, you'd still really want him to win that bet! Winning games right now gives that bet longer odds. It's perverse, but at the end of the day, that's why a part of me has winced in pain at these wins.

Third, for two reasons, getting this pick this year would be vastly preferable to getting the pick next year. First, because of timing. Let's be honest, KAT is likely gone after the 2022-23 season if we don't start winning or looking like winning is on the horizon. A draft pick this year will help that happen more than a pick next year. I think there's a good chance Cade in particular, and maybe Suggs, could actually do that by impacting winning as rookies. Or, you could trade Ant and/or the guy we pick this year (I'd prefer to move Russell, but the value wouldn't be there) for a legit star who WOULD help us win. OR, honestly, a top pick this year would likely give us a foundational player to build around with Ant if we decided to move KAT after all--at the very least, a top 3 pick this year would be way more likely to be a foundational player than whoever we might pick next year. Which is essentially the second reason why keeping this pick is so important. This team had a terrible record this year partly due to injuries, partly because of coaching turnover, and partly because we relied heavily on an inefficient rookie. But now with the guys healthy, Edwards showing improvement, and Finch establishing some consistency, our record is looking up. We have every reason to think we will be a better team next year, maybe much better, and therefore our pick next year would likely be worse. All the more reason to increase our odds of keeping the pick this year.


Again, I said earlier this season that I wanted to win because wins were more important for fixing our culture. I hate tanking in general and have long criticized this franchise's tendency to soft tank, or even the flagrant bullshit with Madsen. The flattened odds mean the benefit of tanking this year is less than in the past. BUT at this late point in the season, given these circumstances, especially these very good players at the top of this very good draft and with our franchise really at a fulcrum point in Towns' tenure, I think whether or not we get this pick might be the most important thing to happen to this franchise since we got Towns, or potentially, I hate to say it, since Kahn botched the 2009 draft. So to me, I honestly wish we'd have lost a couple of those last games, and I honestly hope we lose more and manage to end up with the 4th worst record (the odds between 5th and 6th are negligible). I hate to say it. I'm sorry. I feel like I need to go take a bath now. But I just think given the nature of our circumstances, it's worth it even with the flattened odds.
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Lipoli390
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by Lipoli390 »

Great post, Drew. I started out several weeks ago as one of a minority who wanted this team to soft tank the rest of the season. In a state or euphoria fueled by four consecutive wins, I flipped my position the other night and started pulling for the Wolves to win as many games as possible the rest of the way. But tonight's loss to the Pelicans jolted me back to reality. As a result, I've returned to my initial belief that the best move for the Wolves at this juncture would be a soft tank to maximize their chances of keeping their pick. My reasons are explained well in your post.
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FNG
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by FNG »

It doesn't matter what we as fans want...Finch and his players clearly have no interest in tanking and aren't going to do it...and that's good. Last night was an unfortunate loss, but it was clear that our guys played hard and Finch put the players out there that he thought would give us the best chance to win (I would have had Okogie in for Dlo when we were nursing the 6 point lead in the final minute, but that's just me). So with the other teams "battling" for positioning either banged up or less talented than us, it is likely that we finish 5th or 6th. But unlike Drew, while I would prefer to finish in the top 3, it doesn't really bother me. Most analysts think next year's draft will be more loaded than this year's with the best HS players joining the one-and-dones making it essentially the first "double draft"...we have a very good chance of landing a very good player next year if we get shut out of the 2021 draft. And I also don't subscribe to the theory that Towns is gone if we don't win next year. I think the development of our younger players, the prospect of an elite player in the 2022 draft, and the cache of having ARod sitting courtside with whoever his next girlfriend becomes is going to be enough to keep his interest.

I also am not a big believer in the whole "culture" thing. We didn't lose last night because this is a bad franchise...we lost because Dlo couldn't make shots down the stretch. I want us to win not because it will improve the culture, but merely because it is more fun for me as a fan. So keep trying to win, and let the chips fall where they may with the draft pick. Maybe we get lucky in the draft with a 40%, 37% or 30% chance...I don't know. Or if we don't get lucky, we get the "consolation prize" of a pick in a loaded 2022 draft. Either way...it's all good.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

Yeah, I hate to say it, but it felt like we dodged a bit of a bullet last night. Losing that game, and Orlando's surprise win, both helped move us closer to better lottery odds.

The unfortunate thing is, even a soft tank might not be enough at this point.

OKC is completely mailing in every game. Just look at what they let Indiana do to them last night! Even one more win from us will guarantee us a tie with them for 3rd/4th. The difference in lottery odds between 3rd and 4th isn't that big a deal. But that still leaves Orlando and Cleveland.

We have to hope that Detroit out-tanks Orlando in their game to offset what looks like a likely win for us over Orlando. The rest of Orlando's games all look like losses.

Cleveland looks like it's completely tanking now with their last two blowouts. And every one of their remaining games is against a team fighting for seeding in the playoffs. They've only won 1 of their last 10 games, and I bet they lose all 8 of their remaining games and end up at 21-51, which is also the same record we'd have if we win only one more game, like the Orlando game.

In other words, even in the "best" case soft tank scenario, we get only 1 more win (Orlando or Detroit) and probably end up in a 2, 3, or even 4-way tie for the 3rd-6th worst record given how hard OKC and Cleveland are tanking. For that to happen, we need to lose one of those games against either Orlando or Detroit, and frankly, neither team looks like it will be easy to lose to, although Memphis seems to have found a way last night! Either way, we could end up tied with multiple shitty teams here at the end of the season. Not sure what would happen in that case. I'd love to get the 3rd worst record. I'd settle for the 4th worst. But I'm fearing and guessing we end up with the 5th or probably 6th worst. At least the 7th looks almost impossible now.
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Lipoli390
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by Lipoli390 »

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:Yeah, I hate to say it, but it felt like we dodged a bit of a bullet last night. Losing that game, and Orlando's surprise win, both helped move us closer to better lottery odds.

The unfortunate thing is, even a soft tank might not be enough at this point.

OKC is completely mailing in every game. Just look at what they let Indiana do to them last night! Even one more win from us will guarantee us a tie with them for 3rd/4th. The difference in lottery odds between 3rd and 4th isn't that big a deal. But that still leaves Orlando and Cleveland.

We have to hope that Detroit out-tanks Orlando in their game to offset what looks like a likely win for us over Orlando. The rest of Orlando's games all look like losses.

Cleveland looks like it's completely tanking now with their last two blowouts. And every one of their remaining games is against a team fighting for seeding in the playoffs. They've only won 1 of their last 10 games, and I bet they lose all 8 of their remaining games and end up at 21-51, which is also the same record we'd have if we win only one more game, like the Orlando game.

In other words, even in the "best" case soft tank scenario, we get only 1 more win (Orlando or Detroit) and probably end up in a 2, 3, or even 4-way tie for the 3rd-6th worst record given how hard OKC and Cleveland are tanking. For that to happen, we need to lose one of those games against either Orlando or Detroit, and frankly, neither team looks like it will be easy to lose to, although Memphis seems to have found a way last night! Either way, we could end up tied with multiple shitty teams here at the end of the season. Not sure what would happen in that case. I'd love to get the 3rd worst record. I'd settle for the 4th worst. But I'm fearing and guessing we end up with the 5th or probably 6th worst. At least the 7th looks almost impossible now.


That's the way I see it too, Drew. Cleveland and OKC have really screwed up our lottery prospects by going into full tank mode so soon and unequivocally. Credit Detroit and Orlando for still trying to win games, but they are bad teams with inferior talent compared to the Wolves. I think the Wolves will beat both of those two and end up with at least 22 wins, which will mean the Wolves finish with the 6th worst record.
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Lipoli390
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Re: We will finish out of the bottom 3

Post by Lipoli390 »

FNG wrote:It doesn't matter what we as fans want...Finch and his players clearly have no interest in tanking and aren't going to do it...and that's good. Last night was an unfortunate loss, but it was clear that our guys played hard and Finch put the players out there that he thought would give us the best chance to win (I would have had Okogie in for Dlo when we were nursing the 6 point lead in the final minute, but that's just me). So with the other teams "battling" for positioning either banged up or less talented than us, it is likely that we finish 5th or 6th. But unlike Drew, while I would prefer to finish in the top 3, it doesn't really bother me. Most analysts think next year's draft will be more loaded than this year's with the best HS players joining the one-and-dones making it essentially the first "double draft"...we have a very good chance of landing a very good player next year if we get shut out of the 2021 draft. And I also don't subscribe to the theory that Towns is gone if we don't win next year. I think the development of our younger players, the prospect of an elite player in the 2022 draft, and the cache of having ARod sitting courtside with whoever his next girlfriend becomes is going to be enough to keep his interest.

I also am not a big believer in the whole "culture" thing. We didn't lose last night because this is a bad franchise...we lost because Dlo couldn't make shots down the stretch. I want us to win not because it will improve the culture, but merely because it is more fun for me as a fan. So keep trying to win, and let the chips fall where they may with the draft pick. Maybe we get lucky in the draft with a 40%, 37% or 30% chance...I don't know. Or if we don't get lucky, we get the "consolation prize" of a pick in a loaded 2022 draft. Either way...it's all good.


FNG - It's definitely more fun to watch the Wolves win. Even though I'm on record wanting the Wolves to soft-tank starting at least two weeks ago, I'll admit that I find myself emotionally invested in the Wolves winning every time I watch them play. I share your view of the "culture" thing. I think it's bogus. It's all about the level of talent, the mix of talent, and how well that talent is used by the coaching staff.

I also agree that KAT won't necessarily push to be traded after next season. He clearly likes it here and likes the idea of being the guy around whom the franchise is built. His close friend, DLO, has two more years left. Assuming we don't trade DLO, having him locked up for two more seasons will further incline KAT to want to stay here through those two seasons. Adding the cache of A-Rod as part of the team's new ownership likely has some appeal to KAT as well.
The key will be whether the Wolves make the playoffs next season. If we do, KAT will definitely want to stay. If we don't, then it will depend on the circumstances. If our young guys are developing and we at least make the play-in tournament, then I still don't see KAT pushing to be traded after next season. But I can see KAT pushing to be traded if we end up in the bottom 6 again without any obvious injury explanations.

I think this team currently has the talent to make playoffs next season with a 7th or 8th seed. The key will be the development of Edwards and McDaniels.
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