Q12543 wrote:Yeah, Zach is opening up some eyes. The biggest thing to me is that his shot is falling. I ultimately see him as a shot maker - hell, he's already evolving into one. These are guys that can pull up on a dime off the dribble and drain one in your face. I'd say he's ahead of Wiggins in this area, whereas Wiggins is much further ahead in terms of getting to the hoop and drawing contact.
You have to be encouraged by the sheer numbers he's putting up right now given his age. The eye test (and turnovers) still indicate, however, someone that often makes poor decisions out there. For example, getting picked clean by Shabazz Napier. That just happens way too often to Zach. Or leading Gorgui on the pick and roll into a charge, when a cross-court pass to the wing (whose guy had already collapsed into the paint) would have been the right play. If he can improve in these areas along with his defense, look out!
I agree with what you are saying Q. I'll say this it just feels like the last few games he has been making more positive plays and doing less of the WTF Zach plays. Last night he regressed back to more of the bad but the good was really good. He looks more comfortable to me as a PG knowing what he is doing. The whole year he has seemed to attack at better times and not settle like we have seen him do before. It's becoming clearer and clearer that you gotta put him on the floor and live with it because at this point the good is outweighing the bad. That could change but I have been very pleased with him lately even last night overall he was pretty good even with a couple pretty poor plays.
The thing is that those poor (inexcusable) plays could have been eliminated without all the focus of him setting up an offense. The kid is an athletically gifted player. But the less thinking he has to do... the better.
I like him best when he has the reigns put away and just living or dying with the results.
I see what you mean however I do see value of him playing as a Pg because I am starting to think he has a legit shot at reaching that higher ceiling. I am it convinced yet but...If he is going to be a playmaking SG that does something besides basically just looking for his own shot I see why playing PG could help him learn to make better decisions because he is getting reps and all that stuff. If he keeps this up he will get to do both (playing SG and PG) which is gonna be good for the Wolves going forward. Imagine trying to guard a group of Rubio, Lavine and Wiggins on the perimeter...Sorry I got too hyped up there.
I saw Zach playing more like a real NBA player at the end of the season last year but it was on a terrible worst in the NBA team and now he is doing it on team that's been plenty respectable playing legit minutes and after the first few games he has actually deserved them to a certain extent and the last couple games he has been good enough to get extra minutes at SG. All things considered with Lavine I am pretty happy with how he has come along this year regardless of what position he has played but I expect him playing more SG especially with Rubio going forward but either way he is gonna handle the ball a healthy amount.
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, Zach is opening up some eyes. The biggest thing to me is that his shot is falling. I ultimately see him as a shot maker - hell, he's already evolving into one. These are guys that can pull up on a dime off the dribble and drain one in your face. I'd say he's ahead of Wiggins in this area, whereas Wiggins is much further ahead in terms of getting to the hoop and drawing contact.
You have to be encouraged by the sheer numbers he's putting up right now given his age. The eye test (and turnovers) still indicate, however, someone that often makes poor decisions out there. For example, getting picked clean by Shabazz Napier. That just happens way too often to Zach. Or leading Gorgui on the pick and roll into a charge, when a cross-court pass to the wing (whose guy had already collapsed into the paint) would have been the right play. If he can improve in these areas along with his defense, look out!
I agree with what you are saying Q. I'll say this it just feels like the last few games he has been making more positive plays and doing less of the WTF Zach plays. Last night he regressed back to more of the bad but the good was really good. He looks more comfortable to me as a PG knowing what he is doing. The whole year he has seemed to attack at better times and not settle like we have seen him do before. It's becoming clearer and clearer that you gotta put him on the floor and live with it because at this point the good is outweighing the bad. That could change but I have been very pleased with him lately even last night overall he was pretty good even with a couple pretty poor plays.
The thing is that those poor (inexcusable) plays could have been eliminated without all the focus of him setting up an offense. The kid is an athletically gifted player. But the less thinking he has to do... the better.
I like him best when he has the reigns put away and just living or dying with the results.
I see what you mean however I do see value of him playing as a Pg because I am starting to think he has a legit shot at reaching that higher ceiling. I am it convinced yet but...If he is going to be a playmaking SG that does something besides basically just looking for his own shot I see why playing PG could help him learn to make better decisions because he is getting reps and all that stuff. If he keeps this up he will get to do both (playing SG and PG) which is gonna be good for the Wolves going forward. Imagine trying to guard a group of Rubio, Lavine and Wiggins on the perimeter...Sorry I got too hyped up there.
I saw Zach playing more like a real NBA player at the end of the season last year but it was on a terrible worst in the NBA team and now he is doing it on team that's been plenty respectable playing legit minutes and after the first few games he has actually deserved them to a certain extent and the last couple games he has been good enough to get extra minutes at SG. All things considered with Lavine I am pretty happy with how he has come along this year regardless of what position he has played but I expect him playing more SG especially with Rubio going forward but either way he is gonna handle the ball a healthy amount.
I don't think anybody can complain too loudly about LaVine at this point. For where he was drafted and the project he was... he's looking like he has a CHANCE to really be a legit player.
I just don't see it running an offense. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. A Crawford type who comes in and provides scoring and energy while handling the ball has a place in this league. And on a team like the Wolves that's so reliant on Rubio playing a very different type of game... the contrast is actually kind of cool.
Umm...this thread was supposed to set aside the Zach positional discussion, and just focus on his improvement and whether he is an MIP candidate, but you guys just can't resist high jacking a thread, can you :) ?
OK. I'll go with the flow. Since we all agree that Zach has taken a huge leap forward this year, and he has played over 90% of his minutes at PG this season, might it not be a logical conclusion that the two facts are related? Flip's theory was allowing Zach to handle the ball as often as he could would accelerate his overall development, and while Sam didn't follow that strategy the first 2 days of training camp, he has played him largely at PG ever since...and Zach has responded with great stats. Would Zach have shown such dramatic improvement this year if he had played 90% of his minutes at SG? We don't know...maybe and maybe not. I tend to think not because of the Flip doctrine, and also Wig and Martin haven't missed much time this year, so Zach wouldn't have gotten the starting minutes he got when Ricky was out. But none of us really know.
All that improvement talk aside, Zach did regress a little last night as Q and monster pointed out. It wasn't just once that he got his pocket picked, it was 2-3 times...and that's just carelessness. He sometimes loses focus and makes a lazy entry pass too. But I would argue that this type of carelessness is part of Zach's 20-year-old persona, and will happen from time to time regardless of the position he is playing. And there's no question in my mind that handling the ball more frequently as a PG will accelerate Zach's development in this area...we're already seeing it as the season progresses. Stay the course, Sam...it's working just fine.
BizarroJerry wrote:Are we going to have these Zach evaluations after every game? Can we wait for at least 25 games? All-Star break?
NO! In fact, I'm planning on increasing the evaluations to every half!
Ok that's fine, lol. That comment wasn't directed at you LST, it was to all my friends here. We're so quick to project and over-analyze on here, especially about Zach, I don't know what it is about him that gets everyone so fired up!
BizarroJerry wrote:Are we going to have these Zach evaluations after every game? Can we wait for at least 25 games? All-Star break?
NO! In fact, I'm planning on increasing the evaluations to every half!
Ok that's fine, lol. That comment wasn't directed at you LST, it was to all my friends here. We're so quick to project and over-analyze on here, especially about Zach, I don't know what it is about him that gets everyone so fired up!
I'd say overall the discussions/nit-picks/analysis are happening beneath what is generally a positive umbrella.
longstrangetrip wrote:Umm...this thread was supposed to set aside the Zach positional discussion, and just focus on his improvement and whether he is an MIP candidate, but you guys just can't resist high jacking a thread, can you :) ?
OK. I'll go with the flow. Since we all agree that Zach has taken a huge leap forward this year, and he has played over 90% of his minutes at PG this season, might it not be a logical conclusion that the two facts are related? Flip's theory was allowing Zach to handle the ball as often as he could would accelerate his overall development, and while Sam didn't follow that strategy the first 2 days of training camp, he has played him largely at PG ever since...and Zach has responded with great stats. Would Zach have shown such dramatic improvement this year if he had played 90% of his minutes at SG? We don't know...maybe and maybe not. I tend to think not because of the Flip doctrine, and also Wig and Martin haven't missed much time this year, so Zach wouldn't have gotten the starting minutes he got when Ricky was out. But none of us really know.
All that improvement talk aside, Zach did regress a little last night as Q and monster pointed out. It wasn't just once that he got his pocket picked, it was 2-3 times...and that's just carelessness. He sometimes loses focus and makes a lazy entry pass too. But I would argue that this type of carelessness is part of Zach's 20-year-old persona, and will happen from time to time regardless of the position he is playing. And there's no question in my mind that handling the ball more frequently as a PG will accelerate Zach's development in this area...we're already seeing it as the season progresses. Stay the course, Sam...it's working just fine.
My answer is YES, and perhaps even more dramatically because the stuff he's doing better at involves mostly shooting and scoring the basketball.
The real sign that playing PG is helping him improve as an all-around guard would be 1) getting his pocket picked less, 2) better reads on PnR, and 3) getting the offense organized more quickly. I haven't really seen this aspect of his game develop a whole lot.
BizarroJerry wrote:Are we going to have these Zach evaluations after every game? Can we wait for at least 25 games? All-Star break?
NO! In fact, I'm planning on increasing the evaluations to every half!
Ok that's fine, lol. That comment wasn't directed at you LST, it was to all my friends here. We're so quick to project and over-analyze on here, especially about Zach, I don't know what it is about him that gets everyone so fired up!
I'd say overall the discussions/nit-picks/analysis are happening beneath what is generally a positive umbrella.
True. But also the chasm between Zach's best moments and his worst makes for great discussion too. On adjacent plays you can see Zach as a HOFer and then a D Leaguer!
This is off topic, but did you guys see Draymond Green pick up KG 5 feet beyond the top of the key and basically deny him any kind of dribble? He knew KG would never shoot that far anyway, but he was all over him. I want a guy like that, Payne-watch that video if you're reading this.
