Camden0916 wrote:Okafor's been avoiding fouls or avoiding defense? This is just an excuse for bad defensive effort. I used to agree with that idea when I watched Love play in Minnesota, but in reality, it all comes down to the player's attitude. Neither one of those guys cared about stopping the opposition.
You're right. That's why in the title game Okafor always got mad at himself after he fouled Kaminsky. That's what guys who just don't care do. They clap and visibly get mad at a dumb decision on defense. There were times I clearly saw him making defensive decisions based on trying to not foul. There's a huge difference between trying not to foul and just not caring on that end. Please find me some evidence of him not caring out there because I saw a guy that showed more than indifference out there every time I watched him.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:Is there any good post scorers in this draft that Flip could target?
I like the fact that the Wolves have two wings that are able to operate in the post with Wiggins and Bazz. These are the type of guys that can create separation late in a game and especially in a playoff game. As far as sure things go, we know that the ball can be thrown into Okafor and he will often score. That's very valuable.
I'm still wishy washy on this pick.
That's a big part of that article. You don't need a post presence every time down the court. But you need a guy like Draymond Green who CAN play in the post and be a threat there to open up other things... especially on switches on the perimeter.
Right and I think the Wolves have 2 of those types. So the question becomes does Okafor need the ball all the time to be effective? If he always needs the ball it negates those 2 versatile guys
He had a higher offensive rebounding rate than Towns so something tells me he doesn't need the ball everytime down the court. He's big so he can be a good screen setter which opens up the guard/wing to do more themselves off the pick. There seems to be this misconception that he needs the ball all the time to be effective. He had a 27% usage rate which is right in line with some of the top players in the NBA. So he warranted the same usage as normal NBA star players. Given his offensive prowess that makes sense and it's still less than a 1/3rd of his team's possessions. People need to stop with the idea that he needs the ball all the time when there is no evidence to back that up.
I apologize for misleading you. I wasn't labeling Okafor, only generating conversation.
Okafor is a great facilitator out of the post. He does such a great job of passing out of the post and getting his guys looks. He doesn't need to score to have big offensive impact. He does need to develop that mid range bank shot so he can help a bit with some spacing.
Camden wrote:Okafor's been avoiding fouls or avoiding defense? This is just an excuse for bad defensive effort. I used to agree with that idea when I watched Love play in Minnesota, but in reality, it all comes down to the player's attitude. Neither one of those guys cared about stopping the opposition.
That is really the question, and one I've been trying to answer. There's no denying Duke was severally lacking in the depth department so it would make sense if players were encouraged to avoid fouls. No one on that team really averaged many fouls per game, Winslow and Okafor were the only players above 2 fouls/game. While that doesn't really prove anything it at least leaves it as a possibility.
The Love comparison seem fair however I think there's a difference. Love wasn't attempting to avoid fouling, he was always trying to get in position for any and every rebound at the expense of stopping the ball from going through the hoop. Watching Okafor I couldn't see any reason to believe he was sacrificing defense to stuff his stats which really leaves 2 options: He really doesn't care about defense OR he avoided fouling because he needed to stay on the court. I'm leaning towards the latter but if Flip feels it's the former then the pick should be an easy one.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:Is there any good post scorers in this draft that Flip could target?
I like the fact that the Wolves have two wings that are able to operate in the post with Wiggins and Bazz. These are the type of guys that can create separation late in a game and especially in a playoff game. As far as sure things go, we know that the ball can be thrown into Okafor and he will often score. That's very valuable.
I'm still wishy washy on this pick.
That's a big part of that article. You don't need a post presence every time down the court. But you need a guy like Draymond Green who CAN play in the post and be a threat there to open up other things... especially on switches on the perimeter.
Right and I think the Wolves have 2 of those types. So the question becomes does Okafor need the ball all the time to be effective? If he always needs the ball it negates those 2 versatile guys
He had a higher offensive rebounding rate than Towns so something tells me he doesn't need the ball everytime down the court. He's big so he can be a good screen setter which opens up the guard/wing to do more themselves off the pick. There seems to be this misconception that he needs the ball all the time to be effective. He had a 27% usage rate which is right in line with some of the top players in the NBA. So he warranted the same usage as normal NBA star players. Given his offensive prowess that makes sense and it's still less than a 1/3rd of his team's possessions. People need to stop with the idea that he needs the ball all the time when there is no evidence to back that up.
But as the article pointed out, getting the ball to a traditional low post big is difficult in today's NBA and it's zone defense. It also slows the offense. The article couldn't be more clear. The residual value of the low post game in today's NBA relates to long athletic PFs, wings and SGs, not traditional post-up bigs. And building an offense in significant part around a traditional low-post big is particularly problematic when your post-up big is a 51% free-throw shooter.
Camden0916 wrote:Okafor's been avoiding fouls or avoiding defense? This is just an excuse for bad defensive effort. I used to agree with that idea when I watched Love play in Minnesota, but in reality, it all comes down to the player's attitude. Neither one of those guys cared about stopping the opposition.
You're right. That's why in the title game Okafor always got mad at himself after he fouled Kaminsky. That's what guys who just don't care do. They clap and visibly get mad at a dumb decision on defense. There were times I clearly saw him making defensive decisions based on trying to not foul. There's a huge difference between trying not to foul and just not caring on that end. Please find me some evidence of him not caring out there because I saw a guy that showed more than indifference out there every time I watched him.
IT WAS THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME.
You can take anybody who doesn't care about defense, put them in a game setting that means championship or bust and I guarantee they'll play harder defensively. It's the other 30 or so games where the guy's effort was questionable at BEST. That is my evidence. Case in point: the guy was MEHH at defensive rebounding. Wanna know what defensive rebounding is really about? EFFORT. Boxing out your man and ending the possession. Okafor's a very good offensive rebounder (because it means scoring points), but working to keep a guy off the glass on defense was something he showed that he just wasn't about. I'm sorry, but the guy did not care about defense and I'm not moving off that stance because everything about his season at Duke tells me not to.
TRKO wrote:Okafor is a great facilitator out of the post. He does such a great job of passing out of the post and getting his guys looks. He doesn't need to score to have big offensive impact. He does need to develop that mid range bank shot so he can help a bit with some spacing.
I agree he's a good passer out of the post. But we just can't count on a 51% free throw shooter to develop a mid-range game. And we can't count on a guy who averaged 1.3 blocks per game in spite of his immense size advantage and who has repeatedly been described as disinterested defensively in college to become a decent NBA defender. At best, Okafor is Tim Duncsn without anything close to Duncan's stellar defense, rim protection. That's not bad, but it's not the best use of the top pick in the draft when you have alternatives like a defensive oriented, athletic big with a nice shooting touch or a potential Brandon Roy/James Harden type guard.
TRKO wrote:Okafor is a great facilitator out of the post. He does such a great job of passing out of the post and getting his guys looks. He doesn't need to score to have big offensive impact. He does need to develop that mid range bank shot so he can help a bit with some spacing.
I agree he's a good passer out of the post. But we just can't count on a 51% free throw shooter to develop a mid-range game. And we can't count on a guy who averaged 1.3 blocks per game in spite of his immense size advantage and who has repeatedly been described as disinterested defensively in college to become a decent NBA defender. At best, Okafor is Tim Duncsn without anything close to Duncan's stellar defense, rim protection. That's not bad, but it's not the best use of the top pick in the draft when you have alternatives like a defensive oriented, athletic big with a nice shooting touch or a potential Brandon Roy/James Harden type guard.
There are no sure fire stars in this draft so I don't see how you can count on the other 2 any more than Okafor to develop and improve the weaknesses in their game. That's commenting on the guy's work ethic and drive that we have no way of knowing outside of what is reported and I haven't heard anything negative on that end for any of the top picks.
TRKO wrote:Okafor is a great facilitator out of the post. He does such a great job of passing out of the post and getting his guys looks. He doesn't need to score to have big offensive impact. He does need to develop that mid range bank shot so he can help a bit with some spacing.
I agree he's a good passer out of the post. But we just can't count on a 51% free throw shooter to develop a mid-range game. And we can't count on a guy who averaged 1.3 blocks per game in spite of his immense size advantage and who has repeatedly been described as disinterested defensively in college to become a decent NBA defender. At best, Okafor is Tim Duncsn without anything close to Duncan's stellar defense, rim protection. That's not bad, but it's not the best use of the top pick in the draft when you have alternatives like a defensive oriented, athletic big with a nice shooting touch or a potential Brandon Roy/James Harden type guard.
There are no sure fire stars in this draft so I don't see how you can count on the other 2 any more than Okafor to develop and improve the weaknesses in their game. That's commenting on the guy's work ethic and drive that we have no way of knowing outside of what is reported and I haven't heard anything negative on that end for any of the top picks.
Kahns - I'm not counting on any draft prospect to improve his weaknesses. That's part of my point. Okafor has three proven strengths: low post scoring, passing out of the post and offensive rebounding. He has no demonstrable strengths defensively - limited lateral quickness, very limited rim protection and inability to defend the perimeter. Even on the offensive end he has very limited shooting range and is a terrible free throw shooter. He may improve one or some - maybe all - of those areas but it's dangerous to count on a player becoming good in an area where he's bad. Towns appears to have fewer areas in which he's bad and, therefore, we don't need to count on as many areas of improvement.
Having said all that, I love Okafor's low post game. He's not just good in that area, he's great. And I like his ability to pass out of the post. So I can see him becoming an Al Jefferson who can also pass out of double teams and keep the ball moving on the offensive end. Drafting him # 1 would not be horrible by any stretch. But in my view it would not be optimal. On the other hand, there is a lot that none of us outside the inner circle of NBA scouts and executives will ever know about these prospects. Honestly if I had good evidence that Okafor is more intense and more committed to improving his game than Towns then I'd take Okafor. Same the other way around.
Hopefully Flip's decision will be thoughtful and well-informed.
