Minnesota Sports Forum

WolvesFan21 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:You got Jimmy out here thriving in Miami, Vanterpool can't get this team to play D. Thibs couldn't get them to play D. Rosas can't construct a team that most teams have figured out how to mimic.


At a certain point, it might just be that this team is building around the wrong guys. Russell and Towns gotta be watching bubble basketball and wondering why they can't win.

I'm in the camp that an actual tank job happened last season. Heck in the Jordan doc the Bulls were trying to tank and not let Jordan play, coming back from injury. They DIDN'T want to make the playoffs. He said so.

To think this is not happening by the bad teams is naive. Now we can debate wether or not that is ideal or not to creating a championship contender or not. But it does happen. And sure if the players were better they wouldn't let a tank happen either, that's another argument too. But I am quite positive the Wolves tanked last season.

I think we all agree that the Wolves were content losing games last season. We documented all the extra long absences (health + otherwise) last season in real time.

It just gets old after awhile. The team has tried to lose as much tried to win for the better part of 20 years.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:You got Jimmy out here thriving in Miami, Vanterpool can't get this team to play D. Thibs couldn't get them to play D. Rosas can't construct a team that most teams have figured out how to mimic.


At a certain point, it might just be that this team is building around the wrong guys. Russell and Towns gotta be watching bubble basketball and wondering why they can't win.

I'm in the camp that an actual tank job happened last season. Heck in the Jordan doc the Bulls were trying to tank and not let Jordan play, coming back from injury. They DIDN'T want to make the playoffs. He said so.

To think this is not happening by the bad teams is naive. Now we can debate wether or not that is ideal or not to creating a championship contender or not. But it does happen. And sure if the players were better they wouldn't let a tank happen either, that's another argument too. But I am quite positive the Wolves tanked last season.

I think we all agree that the Wolves were content losing games last season. We documented all the extra long absences (health + otherwise) last season in real time.

It just gets old after awhile. The team has tried to lose as much tried to win for the better part of 20 years.

We'll see if this draft pays off or not. Because we don't have a pick next year, tanking will not happen. I suspect the Wolves will outperform expectations. Might be a good betting opportunity if one is inclined.

Camden wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

Camden wrote:Never forget when Flip traded Thaddeus Young for a 38-year old Kevin Garnett, and then a first-round pick for the already-struggling Adreian Payne. I think I hate those series of moves more than almost any other in Wolves history because they were done out of emotion and not logic.

Its funny that you attack the concept of emotional trades when you were very high on two trades that I consider emotional trades.

First, you absolutely love the DLO trade. I just find it strange bringing in a poor defensive player (albeit a replacement "AllStar" in the Eastern Conference) who is on a max deal to try to placate Towns, who is still signed for several years and has publicly committed to this franchise.

You also, loved the Butler trade. I concur that Butler is a great player, however, I view the trade as Thibs squandering assets for short term wins to try to save his job as I don't think Thibs has ever had a winning season without the "Great" Jimmy Butler on his roster.

I'm typically in favor of trades that land the best player in the deal, especially when the cost is reasonable or even at a discount for whatever reason.

All of the above applies in those two specific trades. Both Jimmy Butler and D'Angelo Russell are, without question, the best players in those respective trades.

All of the above applies in those two specific trades. Both Jimmy Butler and D'Angelo Russell are, without question, the best players in those respective trades.

The cost for Butler was an injured Zach LaVine, what looked to be a bust in Kris Dunn, and swapping first-round picks. Butler was coming off of an All-NBA season with two seasons of team control left on his deal. While I would have preferred the Wolves to move Andrew Wiggins in that deal, I feel confident saying that trade was great value for Minnesota on its face and could have been even better had the Justin Patton pick worked out. No emotions are needed here as this was objectively a good trade for both teams even in hindsight.

Fast forward a couple years and Wiggins' value had depreciated to a new low. The speculation was that it would take at least one first-round pick just to incentivize another team to take him and his max contract on to their books. That's negative value. And then there's D'Angelo Russell, who despite his faults led the Brooklyn Nets to the playoffs in the campaign prior where he finished second in Most Improved Player voting and was named an All-Star at the age of 23. By almost any definition, that's trending up. We can assume that Russell was worth at least one first-round pick by himself. So, we have two players here heading in different directions in their careers with very different values on their heads. All it took to essentially dump Wiggins and add Russell was one protected first-round pick and a second-round pick? That's all? Minnesota removed arguably the worst contract in basketball and added a youthful All-Star at a position of need that also happens to fit very well with their best player on and off the court. This trade checks all the boxes. Value. Reasoning. Fit.

Butler was the best player but he was a poor fit, too old to build around (unless you think making the playoffs and getting trounced in the first round as your ultimate goal), his personality conflicted with Towns and cost the Wolves Lavine who is statistically very similar to Russell (who you love, but is on a much better contract), and two top ten picks and spurred the Wolves to trade Rubio for the pick that became Josh Okogie.

I'm not sure at all that Russell will end up being the best player in that deal. Lets see how Wiggins does as it seems the Warriors think more highly of former Rookie of the Year Wiggins who in 2019 showed flashes of putting it all together. The draft picks that the Wolves gave up for Russell might turn out better than Russell. I'm not a fan of taking on a max deal with a player who has been a net negative plus minus for his career. If you think DLO suddenly turns the Wolves into a title contender, then I have a bridge to sell you. The Wolves need to be patient and start hitting on their draft picks and developing young talent. A franchise like Minnesota that has a problem attracting free agents unless they are massively overpaid must focus on the draft. These short cut trades (Butler, DLO) are just plain stupid.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:You got Jimmy out here thriving in Miami, Vanterpool can't get this team to play D. Thibs couldn't get them to play D. Rosas can't construct a team that most teams have figured out how to mimic.


At a certain point, it might just be that this team is building around the wrong guys. Russell and Towns gotta be watching bubble basketball and wondering why they can't win.

I'm in the camp that an actual tank job happened last season. Heck in the Jordan doc the Bulls were trying to tank and not let Jordan play, coming back from injury. They DIDN'T want to make the playoffs. He said so.

To think this is not happening by the bad teams is naive. Now we can debate wether or not that is ideal or not to creating a championship contender or not. But it does happen. And sure if the players were better they wouldn't let a tank happen either, that's another argument too. But I am quite positive the Wolves tanked last season.

I think we all agree that the Wolves were content losing games last season. We documented all the extra long absences (health + otherwise) last season in real time.

It just gets old after awhile. The team has tried to lose as much tried to win for the better part of 20 years.

We'll see if this draft pays off or not. Because we don't have a pick next year, tanking will not happen. I suspect the Wolves will outperform expectations. Might be a good betting opportunity if one is inclined.

Ha. You're right!

Finally, we discovered the secret. If only we could find a Joe Smith type middling player to add to the drama.

KG4Ever wrote:

Camden wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

Camden wrote:Never forget when Flip traded Thaddeus Young for a 38-year old Kevin Garnett, and then a first-round pick for the already-struggling Adreian Payne. I think I hate those series of moves more than almost any other in Wolves history because they were done out of emotion and not logic.

Its funny that you attack the concept of emotional trades when you were very high on two trades that I consider emotional trades.

First, you absolutely love the DLO trade. I just find it strange bringing in a poor defensive player (albeit a replacement "AllStar" in the Eastern Conference) who is on a max deal to try to placate Towns, who is still signed for several years and has publicly committed to this franchise.

You also, loved the Butler trade. I concur that Butler is a great player, however, I view the trade as Thibs squandering assets for short term wins to try to save his job as I don't think Thibs has ever had a winning season without the "Great" Jimmy Butler on his roster.

I'm typically in favor of trades that land the best player in the deal, especially when the cost is reasonable or even at a discount for whatever reason.

All of the above applies in those two specific trades. Both Jimmy Butler and D'Angelo Russell are, without question, the best players in those respective trades.

All of the above applies in those two specific trades. Both Jimmy Butler and D'Angelo Russell are, without question, the best players in those respective trades.

The cost for Butler was an injured Zach LaVine, what looked to be a bust in Kris Dunn, and swapping first-round picks. Butler was coming off of an All-NBA season with two seasons of team control left on his deal. While I would have preferred the Wolves to move Andrew Wiggins in that deal, I feel confident saying that trade was great value for Minnesota on its face and could have been even better had the Justin Patton pick worked out. No emotions are needed here as this was objectively a good trade for both teams even in hindsight.

Fast forward a couple years and Wiggins' value had depreciated to a new low. The speculation was that it would take at least one first-round pick just to incentivize another team to take him and his max contract on to their books. That's negative value. And then there's D'Angelo Russell, who despite his faults led the Brooklyn Nets to the playoffs in the campaign prior where he finished second in Most Improved Player voting and was named an All-Star at the age of 23. By almost any definition, that's trending up. We can assume that Russell was worth at least one first-round pick by himself. So, we have two players here heading in different directions in their careers with very different values on their heads. All it took to essentially dump Wiggins and add Russell was one protected first-round pick and a second-round pick? That's all? Minnesota removed arguably the worst contract in basketball and added a youthful All-Star at a position of need that also happens to fit very well with their best player on and off the court. This trade checks all the boxes. Value. Reasoning. Fit.

Butler was the best player but he was a poor fit, too old to build around (unless you think making the playoffs and getting trounced in the first round as your ultimate goal), his personality conflicted with Towns and cost the Wolves Lavine who is statistically very similar to Russell (who you love, but is on a much better contract), and two top ten picks and spurred the Wolves to trade Rubio for the pick that became Josh Okogie.

I'm not sure at all that Russell will end up being the best player in that deal. Lets see how Wiggins does as it seems the Warriors think more highly of former Rookie of the Year Wiggins who in 2019 showed flashes of putting it all together. The draft picks that the Wolves gave up for Russell might turn out better than Russell. I'm not a fan of taking on a max deal with a player who has been a net negative plus minus for his career. If you think DLO suddenly turns the Wolves into a title contender, then I have a bridge to sell you. The Wolves need to be patient and start hitting on their draft picks and developing young talent. A franchise like Minnesota that has a problem attracting free agents unless they are massively overpaid must focus on the draft. These short cut trades (Butler, DLO) are just plain stupid.

Then you have to say the Heat made a massive mistake trading for Butler because he didn't fit the timeline. They were a team that didn't make the playoffs last year (so not a true contender). They had a veteran top 15ish PG in Dragic (Like teague at the time), A 2nd year player who didn't really play in his 1st year in Duncan Robinson, a unproven 13th pick in Herro (Patton was literally a unproven 16th pick), a young improving 3rd year Center in Bam (Kat was way better then Bam), A overpaid backup C in Olynk (Gorgui Dieng) and a vet who can possibly produce for the Heat in James Johnson (Taj Gibson), also added at the time a past their prime vet at the deadline in Iggy (Drose).

Im just saying if you think the timing was bad for the Wolves then you also have to say the timing was bad for the Heat currently. Yes the Jimmy trade did not work out, yes Jimmy and Kat didn't get along. How are we supposed to know that Jimmy and Kat would hate each other before hand. Does that say more about Jimmy or Kat. Jimmy is an A-hole but he is working just fine with his young ass team currently with a few solid vets sprinkled in. So why couldn't Jimmy and Kat get along??? Just because the Wolves didn't go on to win multiple titles because of the Jimmy trade doesn't mean you don't add the All NBA talent when you can. Tatum is in his 3rd year and leading the Celtics why couldn't we expect the same thing out of Kat, why was it to early for Kat to make a giganitc leap. We are making excuses for the wolves and blaming it all on Jimmy and Thibs when in reality for whatever it was the lake of progression in Wiggins and Kat. Also the wolves were fucking good until Jimmy got hurt, if Jimmy was on roster now the wolves would still be playing today in my opinion. Does it suck it didn't work of course but you have to swing when you get the chance.

Also take away everything Thibs did our roster would be a high priced non-playoff team currently.
Rubio (17 million a year)
Lavine (19.5 million a year)
Wiggins (29.5 million a year)
Marrakannan (5.5 million a year with an extension this upcoming year)
Kat (29.5 million a year)

With one lets say somewhere between the 8th and 14th pick in the NBA draft in 2018 (Sexton, Knox, Bridges, SGA, Brides, Robinson and Porter) so a 25% chance of legit getting a piece of significance in Porter or SGA and there are still massive questions about Porter on the defensive end.

I'm really bored with any talks of "timeline." It's an excuse perpetually bad teams make when talking themselves into The Promise of Hope.

There are too many examples that we can cite to disprove the theory. In the end, the Wolves had...

#1 draft pick, franchise center who "earned" a max deal
#1 draft pick, athletic wing who "earned" a max deal
a third-team All NBA game who was only 28 at the time.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm really bored with any talks of "timeline." It's an excuse perpetually bad teams make when talking themselves into The Promise of Hope.

There are too many examples that we can cite to disprove the theory. In the end, the Wolves had...

#1 draft pick, franchise center who "earned" a max deal
#1 draft pick, athletic wing who "earned" a max deal
a third-team All NBA game who was only 28 at the time.

Agreed 100%!

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm really bored with any talks of "timeline." It's an excuse perpetually bad teams make when talking themselves into The Promise of Hope.

There are too many examples that we can cite to disprove the theory. In the end, the Wolves had...

#1 draft pick, franchise center who "earned" a max deal
#1 draft pick, athletic wing who "earned" a max deal
a third-team All NBA game who was only 28 at the time.

But if you don't build it for a perfect 10 year run what's the point?

In all seriousness though the Butler trade was the right move at the time. We weren't gonna have cap space with Towns and Wiggins on max deals and Lavine getting a big deal. So is Lavine/Wiggins/Towns better than Butler/Wiggins/Towns? That's an easy no. If Wiggins and Towns had done their jobs and kept us afloat when Jimmy was out we wouldn't have been an 8 seed in the first place. We were a top 4 team with Jimmy with only the Warriors and Rockets as bad matchups for us in the playoffs. If we end up the 6 seed or better there's a good chance we make it out of the first round and this is a whole different conversation. At some point you have to try to win. When you max out your two first overall picks that's the time especially when you have the chance to add a player the caliber of Jimmy Butler. We can't do anything about the fact that Towns and Wiggins were too soft and spoiled to handle an alpha dog trying to help them win games. The Heat are the 4th team he's elevated in his career while Towns and Wiggins have yet to accomplish anything. Butler wasn't the problem.

The Butler deal was a great deal. The fact that we didn't have the ownership and management structure to properly assess and manage Butler was the problem. So Jimmy shit on us and left, and frankly we deserved it. You always have to angle for the most talent to win. It can turn around too. Look at the Clippers. They were once talked about with equal ridicule as us. New owner and Jerry West and now they're elite. Yes Minnesota doesn't have the beaches, or weather, or restaurants, or nightlife. But they have bike lanes, and the lakes for 3 months.

thedoper wrote:The Butler deal was a great deal. The fact that we didn't have the ownership and management structure to properly assess and manage Butler was the problem. So Jimmy shit on us and left, and frankly we deserved it. You always have to angle for the most talent to win. It can turn around too. Look at the Clippers. They were once talked about with equal ridicule as us. New owner and Jerry West and now they're elite. Yes Minnesota doesn't have the beaches, or weather, or restaurants, or nightlife. But they have bike lanes, and the lakes for 3 months.

Is the love boat still available to rent?