Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:https://twitter.com/phantele_/status/1433457123682312195?s=10

More information suggesting that the Wolves have a decent chance of ending up with Simmons.

All things I've noted here at one point or another. Good summary. I can't stress the last point enough. D'Angelo Russell and Ben Simmons have games that are built to play with each either. Think Steph Curry and Draymond Green albeit not anything close to that level. But the style, the strengths and weaknesses, the player molds, etc. Russell and Simmons will be a very dangerous duo. Oh, yeah, and then there's arguably the most skilled big in the history of the game in Karl-Anthony Towns and a future All-Star in Anthony Edwards. That foursome would be tough.

Cam - You've persuaded me on the DLO/Simmons combo, which I was initially skeptical about. But would you trade DLO if necessary to get Simmons? If so, who or what else (if anything) would you be willing to give up along with DLO.

Firstly, I obviously think that Ben Simmons is obtainable without including D'Angelo Russell and the collection of talent afterwards, including Russell, is what really excites me. Those pieces work really well together in theory. But to answer your question, I wouldn't include Russell. I'm sure I'll wake up my haters with that take (ha), but I feel good about this team with the current talent that's already on it. I figured this team had a chance to win 41-ish games with no further moves after acquiring Patrick Beverley. If Minnesota doesn't land Simmons, then I'll be bummed because that's a great opportunity, but I'll revert back to my prior excitement about finally getting to see what this core looks like.

I still don't see Morey settling for two role players (e.g., Beasley/Prince), even though Beasley is a very good one, and a bunch of future picks in exchange for Simmons.

Agreed. I can't imagine Joel Embiid would be happy after multiple deeper playoff runs to trade the team's 2nd best player for one borderline starter, a random bench guy and future picks years down the line.

Think of this from the 76ers point of view.

They could conceivably play for an NBA title if the chips fall the right way. And they'd willingly punt that opportunity for the Promise of Hope?

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

Question:

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Patrick Beverley, Malik Beasley, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 40-45?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Fred VanVleet, Danny Green, OG Anunoby, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Tyrese Haliburton, Danny Green, Harrison Barnes, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

What team is trading them an assortment of players that makes them significantly better than the rest? What about better than last year? The Sixers won 68-percent of their games in 2020-2021, which extrapolates to a 56-win season under normal circumstances. Are any of these teams post-trade matching that success let alone surpassing it? Please, entertain me.

KG4Ever wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:
All things I've noted here at one point or another. Good summary. I can't stress the last point enough. D'Angelo Russell and Ben Simmons have games that are built to play with each either. Think Steph Curry and Draymond Green albeit not anything close to that level. But the style, the strengths and weaknesses, the player molds, etc. Russell and Simmons will be a very dangerous duo. Oh, yeah, and then there's arguably the most skilled big in the history of the game in Karl-Anthony Towns and a future All-Star in Anthony Edwards. That foursome would be tough.

Wait I thought you said Tyrell Terry was the next Stephen Curry, Now its DLO? Oh, wait wasn't he the next Harden? Cam you crack me up with your ridiculous love for DLO.

That's a really weird take in response to a post that is pretty explicitly talking about play style only and goes as far as saying "albeit not anything close to that level". Just seems like an attempt to pick an argument for the sake of it.

Camden wrote:Lip, there's a number of moves that Gersson Rosas has made that I find to be savvy. He's also made some very questionable or downright bad moves. We clearly differ in our views of the D'Angelo Russell trade. In my opinion, his moves are probably more good than bad at this point, which is why we find ourselves in a position to acquire an All-NBA player while still fielding a worthwhile team around him.

I agree his moves have been more good than bad. I don't think we differ a lot in our assessment of Rosas. My view is that the overall performance of his front office has been positive based on success evaluating and picking young talent. Edwards, McDaniels, Naz Reid, Vanderbilt, Beasley are all good examples. I think Gersson's business or executive savvy has been below average, although his moves this off season show improvement in that area.

I keep thinking about asset value and it seems some people see the Sixers getting four to five #1s worth of value back for Simmons who is an elite player with significant flaws that is heavily forcing his way out. Do people really think that value is realistic?

I'd say D-Lo and McDaniels are each easily worth a 1st rounder and I'd say more realistically something closer to a combined 2 1sts and a 2nd in value. The notion D-Lo isn't a good player is insane, the main issue with him for me is his contract and injuries. I would also put a 1st rounder value on Beasley as well given his value (skill + contract).

So back to asset value. Any combo of 2 of those guys above (who I would say would warrant mid to high firsts in return) plus 2-3 first rounders seems way high given the current situation unless a bidding war happens. Now certainly first rounders have varying value and IF the Wolves became a perennial top 4 team in the West, those added 2-3 first would be low and not a huge deal, but... we're talking about the Wolves lol.

idk, I just think the current speculated value of Simmons is high and that it's just as likely the Sixers get 3 firsts of value in return as it is them getting 4+ in return.

PS: I also fully expect it would be a 3 or 4 team deal if it happens with picks going to the 3rd/4th teams. Also it's late and I'm fading, but hooopefully that all makes sense haha.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:As I've suggested, no one is as high on DLO as Rosas is (possible exception - Cam). I also don't believe Simmons and DLO are a great fit together. I'm not saying they are a bad fit, but they both need the basketball in their hands to be most effective. That's not the case with Dray and Steph. If we could get Simmons while also losing DLO, Rosas is automatically the executive of the year.

The best thing Rosas has done to date was last years draft. I'll give him credit for finding Naz, and less for Vando and Nowell. But generally he has been terrible. That's why we're still projected to finish almost 20 games under .500. The move to get Culver sucked, the DLO trade sucked, and he hasn't done anything else to distinguish his tenure. He needs to get Simmons done to make us a playoff team and make an impression on the new ownership.

Unfortunately, this take matches my view of Rosas almost 100%. I will add however that I (and most of us here) were quite happy with the Beverley deal where he brought in some defensive toughness while unloading players few of us wanted. But I agree...get Simmons, and my opinion on Rosas swings to positive.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:https://twitter.com/phantele_/status/1433457123682312195?s=10

More information suggesting that the Wolves have a decent chance of ending up with Simmons.

All things I've noted here at one point or another. Good summary. I can't stress the last point enough. D'Angelo Russell and Ben Simmons have games that are built to play with each either. Think Steph Curry and Draymond Green albeit not anything close to that level. But the style, the strengths and weaknesses, the player molds, etc. Russell and Simmons will be a very dangerous duo. Oh, yeah, and then there's arguably the most skilled big in the history of the game in Karl-Anthony Towns and a future All-Star in Anthony Edwards. That foursome would be tough.

Cam - You've persuaded me on the DLO/Simmons combo, which I was initially skeptical about. But would you trade DLO if necessary to get Simmons? If so, who or what else (if anything) would you be willing to give up along with DLO.

Firstly, I obviously think that Ben Simmons is obtainable without including D'Angelo Russell and the collection of talent afterwards, including Russell, is what really excites me. Those pieces work really well together in theory. But to answer your question, I wouldn't include Russell. I'm sure I'll wake up my haters with that take (ha), but I feel good about this team with the current talent that's already on it. I figured this team had a chance to win 41-ish games with no further moves after acquiring Patrick Beverley. If Minnesota doesn't land Simmons, then I'll be bummed because that's a great opportunity, but I'll revert back to my prior excitement about finally getting to see what this core looks like.

I still don't see Morey settling for two role players (e.g., Beasley/Prince), even though Beasley is a very good one, and a bunch of future picks in exchange for Simmons.

Agreed. I can't imagine Joel Embiid would be happy after multiple deeper playoff runs to trade the team's 2nd best player for one borderline starter, a random bench guy and future picks years down the line.

Think of this from the 76ers point of view.

They could conceivably play for an NBA title if the chips fall the right way. And they'd willingly punt that opportunity for the Promise of Hope?

I think message boards, even ones that seem to be to be smarter than most like this one, too often ignore this perspective. While I don't discount (and really cheer for) Cam's view that eventually Morey may realize he has overplayed his hand and be forced to reduce his demands, right now he is looking for a player like Lilliard in return...and firmly believes the best defender in the league warrants this. The poo poo platters we keep throwing out here would delight us, but would likely make guys like Embiid furious. I have little doubt that the price tag of any deal with the Wolves currently includes KAT or Ant, and I suspect nobody here would include KAT in a deal and only 2 or 3 (I would be one) of us would support including Ant.

Miles to go before we sleep on this one. Man, I hope Cam and Lip are right and we can complete a deal without including Ant.

Camden wrote:I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

LOL. Your condescension is noted.

My point stands. Embiid is a superstar. Most superstars want to win now. So I hope the 76ers have his buy-in on being patient hoping that something will happen... eventually.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

LOL. Your condescension is noted.

My point stands. Embiid is a superstar. Most superstars want to win now. So I hope the 76ers have his buy-in on being patient hoping that something will happen... eventually.

Abe we have probably seen this situation very similarly up to this point. Right now I think we have enough evidence to say that Simmons must be traded and there is a lot of reporting that says this was where it was headed months ago. This seems very similar to the Butler situation. This likely could have been resolved already but Morey was playing it exactly like Thibs did asking sky high for Simmons. Morey will come out better than Thibs/hamstring Scott Layden but the clock is literally ticking on this getting even worse.

The question is are the Sixers gonna do the best they can for right now in this season or load up for that next guy while winning what they can? You said patience...there are multiple ways Embiid could be patient. Morey could also be pissing him off (or do so eventually) by the way he is handling this. What is going to improve the Sixers situation by waiting?