Offseason trade forum

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yes. I'm bitter. Sorry.

But I don't quite grasp this stuff. For example, I keep hearing that the Wizards should get rid of Bradley Beal as quickly as possible since they aren't going anywhere. Ok... so... if they did that...

Bradley Beal is entering his prime at age 26. He's coming off his best season yet in a career that's shown steady growth amid a team of mixed success and a horrible front office. So let's ditch the ONE success story for the HOPES of landing somebody else who might possibly be as good as Beal someday.

What?

Am I so out of touch that most Wizards fans (or Wolves fans or Kings fans or Knicks fans) prefer to watch unproven players struggle over the brilliance/competency of a player who's overcome those odds to be an All NBA caliber player?

The Promise of Hope is strong.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Jerami Grant traded to the Nuggets for a 2020 1st

Love it for both sides.

For Denver, Grant is an ideal frontcourt partner next to Jokic. Also just 25-years old on a team-friendly contract (1+1, $18.7M remaining). That's worth a first.

For Oklahoma City, this move saves them $39M in salary and luxury tax and adds yet another first-round pick to the asset pile. They will almost certainly plan on using Gallinari as the starting power forward.

It's always interesting to see good how good organizations work.

OKC was dealt a surprise blow with the unexpected trade demand from Paul George. So what does OKC do? They immediately switch to full rebuild mode and extract a bevy of first round picks and really high upside young talent like G-Alexander. Grant is young and talented, but he's a role player. So OKC turns him into a future 1st round pick knowing that they OKC needs to build a new core of elite players and realizing that the more 1st round picks you have the better your chance of hitting on one in the draft and also realizing the trade value and maneuvering flexibility you get from 1st round picks.

Meanwhile, Denver's top notch front office already made skillful use of the draft, getting Jokic in the 2nd round and Murray at #7 in the first round a few years ago. So they have their core two elite players. What do they do? They bring in a really nice complementary rotation player who is also young and, therefore, someone who can grow and develop with their young core.

You're either building your core or you're not. The Wolves still need at least one but preferably two more core elite players to pair with KAT. Rosas needs to act accordingly. Among other things, I think that ultimately means trading Covington for young high upside talent or a future 1st round pick (or both).

Is anybody else even more nervous than before... even IF things work out perfectly for Rosas and the Wolves and a 2nd player (or 3rd) joins KAT?

Only last July, Paul George committed "for many years" to the Thunder. Nope. Sike!

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but I see very little chance of any sort of sustainable success for the Wolves under this new NBA model. It's MUCH MORE likely that KAT teams up with other players elsewhere, or any partnership here is painfully short before the Wolves are forced to rebuild again.

And not a single person out of this fanbase will care. The media LOVES this. Casual fans LOVE this. Big markets (or warm locales) LOVE this.

Meh. There's real no upside to all this for franchises like Minnesota.

You, pessimistic? That can't be! :) Seriously, the Spurs have done just fine. The Warriors weren't a destination franchise until they build a sustainable powerhouse primarily through the draft. Denver is doing just fine as is Portland. The Nets were an afterthought in the shadow of the Knicks for years before a smart front office team took over and turned them into THE team in New York. Sometimes a player will unexpectedly leave or want to leave -- e.g., Kawhi Leonard and Durant when he left OKC. But the top front offices deal with those events effectively. Meanwhile, a lot of stars have been happy to remain with the teams that draft them, including players like Westbrook, every Spurs star except Kawhi, DeRozan (didn't want to leave Toronto), and KG (didn't want to leave the Wolves) among others.

The key is having a top notch front office. We'll see whether we have that in Rosas and his guys.

To be fair... you just pointed to multiple examples... mostly from a different era. This is not our older brother's NBA. It's changing beneath our feet.

And Kawhi Leonard did leave SAS. And then Toronto. And he's literally being universally praised while the two solidly run franchises he left are left to rebuild on the fly. Paul George just re-upped in OKC a year ago... only to demand a trade THREE years before his contract expires. It's the 2nd time he's demanded out from a "forgotten market" team in 2+ years... and he's also almost universally praised for it... instead Russell Westbrook is taking the heat for some easy-to-dispense narrative.

Toronto, SAS and OKC are capable of treading water or even better. Each has a history of solid management. But everything they do will be to rebuild to get back to the point where they were with Leonard... and HOPE that the star taking them there won't bolt on a whim.



[Note: I guess I'll be rooting heavily for the likes of Denver, Portland and Utah... with an understanding that when/if Jokic, Lillard and Mitchell ditch them unceremoniously, it's all for the best for the league.]

Warriors, Portland, Spurs, Nuggets, Jazz, Memphis... These aren't from a different era.

I disagree. Things are moving at such a dizzying pace right now with Player Empowerment... the old model, as recent as 4 years ago... or 14 months ago... is not the same.

Where does it end?

I hope guys like Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Lillard, et al don't start moving on a whim, too. Right now, most of those guys are simply too young to have earned that "empowerment."


[Note: It might be as simple as one player holding firm... and grabbing hold of that pendulum to slow it down a bit. I think Giannis could be that guy... or add to the "fun" we're seeing now. We'll know more in about a year.]

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think a lot of these new team ups are built on a house of cards. Everyone is just handing them top tier status just like they handed the Warriors the title last year. Lebron isn't getting younger. AD, Kawhi and PG all have big injury concerns. CP3 and Harden may hate each other and blow it up at any point. This year is as in flux as I've seen as to who is going to come out on top. The top players all wanted this so it will be curious what the fallout is when most of them fail because only one team gets to win at the end of the day.

[thedoper]

I think a lot of these new team ups are built on a house of cards. Everyone is just handing them top tier status just like they handed the Warriors the title last year. Lebron isn't getting younger. AD, Kawhi and PG all have big injury concerns. CP3 and Harden may hate each other and blow it up at any point. This year is as in flux as I've seen as to who is going to come out on top. The top players all wanted this so it will be curious what the fallout is when most of them fail because only one team gets to win at the end of the day.

Toronto was built on a house of cards and it got them a championship. The window is small and the only chance a small market is going to get is to be bold. We're failing either way, it would be nice to see us go down swinging.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think a lot of these new team ups are built on a house of cards. Everyone is just handing them top tier status just like they handed the Warriors the title last year. Lebron isn't getting younger. AD, Kawhi and PG all have big injury concerns. CP3 and Harden may hate each other and blow it up at any point. This year is as in flux as I've seen as to who is going to come out on top. The top players all wanted this so it will be curious what the fallout is when most of them fail because only one team gets to win at the end of the day.

Toronto was built on a house of cards and it got them a championship. The window is small and the only chance a small market is going to get is to be bold. We're failing either way, it would be nice to see us go down swinging.

Toronto was the opposite of a house of cards. They won the title because they had 7 guys score in double digits in game 6. It took them a couple rounds to get there, but they were the deepest team in the league by the end of the playoffs having 7 "plus" players to put on the court. They were the 3 seed sitting their best player for 1/4 of the regular season. They had the best depth in the league at the end of the day.

[TheGrey08]

To be fair... you just pointed to multiple examples... mostly from a different era. This is not our older brother's NBA. It's changing beneath our feet.

And Kawhi Leonard did leave SAS. And then Toronto. And he's literally being universally praised while the two solidly run franchises he left are left to rebuild on the fly. Paul George just re-upped in OKC a year ago... only to demand a trade THREE years before his contract expires. It's the 2nd time he's demanded out from a "forgotten market" team in 2+ years... and he's also almost universally praised for it... instead Russell Westbrook is taking the heat for some easy-to-dispense narrative.

Toronto, SAS and OKC are capable of treading water or even better. Each has a history of solid management. But everything they do will be to rebuild to get back to the point where they were with Leonard... and HOPE that the star taking them there won't bolt on a whim.


[Note: I guess I'll be rooting heavily for the likes of Denver, Portland and Utah... with an understanding that when/if Jokic, Lillard and Mitchell ditch them unceremoniously, it's all for the best for the league.]

The thing about them going to the Clippers though? They are both from LA and are going home. I doubt George would have left for just any destination and I think Kawhi would still be in Toronto if he didn't have the chance to go home AND pair with another star.

[thedoper]

I think a lot of these new team ups are built on a house of cards. Everyone is just handing them top tier status just like they handed the Warriors the title last year. Lebron isn't getting younger. AD, Kawhi and PG all have big injury concerns. CP3 and Harden may hate each other and blow it up at any point. This year is as in flux as I've seen as to who is going to come out on top. The top players all wanted this so it will be curious what the fallout is when most of them fail because only one team gets to win at the end of the day.

Toronto was built on a house of cards and it got them a championship. The window is small and the only chance a small market is going to get is to be bold. We're failing either way, it would be nice to see us go down swinging.

Toronto was the opposite of a house of cards. They won the title because they had 7 guys score in double digits in game 6. It took them a couple rounds to get there, but they were the deepest team in the league by the end of the playoffs having 7 "plus" players to put on the court. They were the 3 seed sitting their best player for 1/4 of the regular season. They had the best depth in the league at the end of the day.

Kawhi and Gasol were risks. Without those two that team doesn't sniff the finals. That was my point with the house of cards. Every team has risks, taking those risks are way better than losing and being irrelevant as I see it.

[Lipoli390]

I think a lot of these new team ups are built on a house of cards. Everyone is just handing them top tier status just like they handed the Warriors the title last year. Lebron isn't getting younger. AD, Kawhi and PG all have big injury concerns. CP3 and Harden may hate each other and blow it up at any point. This year is as in flux as I've seen as to who is going to come out on top. The top players all wanted this so it will be curious what the fallout is when most of them fail because only one team gets to win at the end of the day.

Toronto was built on a house of cards and it got them a championship. The window is small and the only chance a small market is going to get is to be bold. We're failing either way, it would be nice to see us go down swinging.

Toronto was the opposite of a house of cards. They won the title because they had 7 guys score in double digits in game 6. It took them a couple rounds to get there, but they were the deepest team in the league by the end of the playoffs having 7 "plus" players to put on the court. They were the 3 seed sitting their best player for 1/4 of the regular season. They had the best depth in the league at the end of the day.

Exactly, Kahn's. You make a big move for a big-time player when you're already on the threshold like Toronto was. As you said, Toronto was hardly a house of cards when they traded for Kawhi. They had a strong foundation. And one key part of that foundation was a 30 year old + guy named Lowry. So it was time to make a big move and they did. As it turned out, it worked.

[AbeVigodaLive]

To be fair... you just pointed to multiple examples... mostly from a different era. This is not our older brother's NBA. It's changing beneath our feet.

And Kawhi Leonard did leave SAS. And then Toronto. And he's literally being universally praised while the two solidly run franchises he left are left to rebuild on the fly. Paul George just re-upped in OKC a year ago... only to demand a trade THREE years before his contract expires. It's the 2nd time he's demanded out from a "forgotten market" team in 2+ years... and he's also almost universally praised for it... instead Russell Westbrook is taking the heat for some easy-to-dispense narrative.

Toronto, SAS and OKC are capable of treading water or even better. Each has a history of solid management. But everything they do will be to rebuild to get back to the point where they were with Leonard... and HOPE that the star taking them there won't bolt on a whim.


[Note: I guess I'll be rooting heavily for the likes of Denver, Portland and Utah... with an understanding that when/if Jokic, Lillard and Mitchell ditch them unceremoniously, it's all for the best for the league.]

The thing about them going to the Clippers though? They are both from LA and are going home. I doubt George would have left for just any destination and I think Kawhi would still be in Toronto if he didn't have the chance to go home AND pair with another star.

I don't care if Paul George's mom was the head coach on another team... it's shady to sign a 4-year deal with a bunch of platitudes to want to play there... only to demand a trade 12 months later.

And it's not like OKC was holding his career back. George had the best season of his career in OKC last season. They were a 50+ win team if he didn't hurt his shoulder.

[Monster]

To be fair... you just pointed to multiple examples... mostly from a different era. This is not our older brother's NBA. It's changing beneath our feet.

And Kawhi Leonard did leave SAS. And then Toronto. And he's literally being universally praised while the two solidly run franchises he left are left to rebuild on the fly. Paul George just re-upped in OKC a year ago... only to demand a trade THREE years before his contract expires. It's the 2nd time he's demanded out from a "forgotten market" team in 2+ years... and he's also almost universally praised for it... instead Russell Westbrook is taking the heat for some easy-to-dispense narrative.

Toronto, SAS and OKC are capable of treading water or even better. Each has a history of solid management. But everything they do will be to rebuild to get back to the point where they were with Leonard... and HOPE that the star taking them there won't bolt on a whim.


[Note: I guess I'll be rooting heavily for the likes of Denver, Portland and Utah... with an understanding that when/if Jokic, Lillard and Mitchell ditch them unceremoniously, it's all for the best for the league.]

The thing about them going to the Clippers though? They are both from LA and are going home. I doubt George would have left for just any destination and I think Kawhi would still be in Toronto if he didn't have the chance to go home AND pair with another star.

I don't care if Paul George's mom was the head coach on another team... it's shady to sign a 4-year deal with a bunch of platitudes to want to play there... only to demand a trade 12 months later.

And it's not like OKC was holding his career back. George had the best season of his career in OKC last season. They were a 50+ win team if he didn't hurt his shoulder.

Abe I thought of you last night watching the Wolves summer league game. Cassidy Hubbard was going through showing all the stuff the whole event had to offer. There was a kid playing the latest NBA video game on one of the many consoles set up. She asked him if he liked the summer league and he said it was awesome. She asked how he liked playing the game and who he was playing with. He said the Celtics because Kyrie Irving was his favorite player. She asked him how he felt about him going to the Nets and he said it was awesome. Ok that wasn't word for word but you get the point. I saw a headline that Dame Lillian said he isn't a "team up" type of guy. We will see. I do think there has always been certain fans that were more about their favorite player. That does seemed to be fostered now more and...quite frankly for me I'm less likely to go all in on that because of the player movement AND if a guy does something dumb we are gonna know about it.