Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:It's odd to me when D'Angelo Russell is consistently made out to be a negative or non-impactful player by the you-know-who's on this board, but the trade ideas floated around by these same basketball minds are sending him out for a player that's clearly valuable around the league albeit to an unknown degree at this time. Like if D-Lo sucks and provides little or no value to winning on the court then why would Atlanta trade John Collins in any deal for him? Seems pretty irrational to me. Two plus two isn't equaling four here.

To be fair... oftentimes, ALL Wolves players are overrated. We also just saw a Beasley + Culver for Collins + Bogdonavich trade floated.

Right, but wouldn't that at least be understandable if it came from someone who was high on or felt positively about those Wolves players that were included in the deal? Like if I proposed D'Angelo Russell for John Collins it would be because I feel like both are very valuable players and maybe the fit or team situation would be my reasoning. But if someone that thinks Russell is merely meh or just okay were to suggest the same deal -- while being high on the incoming player -- wouldn't it be a little bizarre? For comparison's sake, that would be like me proposing Ricky Rubio for Jamal Murray. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how that works.

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:It's odd to me when D'Angelo Russell is consistently made out to be a negative or non-impactful player by the you-know-who's on this board, but the trade ideas floated around by these same basketball minds are sending him out for a player that's clearly valuable around the league albeit to an unknown degree at this time. Like if D-Lo sucks and provides little or no value to winning on the court then why would Atlanta trade John Collins in any deal for him? Seems pretty irrational to me. Two plus two isn't equaling four here.

To be fair... oftentimes, ALL Wolves players are overrated. We also just saw a Beasley + Culver for Collins + Bogdonavich trade floated.

Right, but wouldn't that at least be understandable if it came from someone who was high on or felt positively about those Wolves players that were included in the deal? Like if I proposed D'Angelo Russell for John Collins it would be because I feel like both are very valuable players and maybe the fit or team situation would be my reasoning. But if someone that thinks Russell is merely meh or just okay were to suggest the same deal -- while being high on the incoming player -- wouldn't it be a little bizarre? For comparison's sake, that would be like me proposing Ricky Rubio for Jamal Murray. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how that works.

I hear you. I get the disconnect. For what it's worth... there is 0% chance Atlanta would consider Russell.

That team is built around Trae Young. Heck, that's why Collins is on his way out in the first place... and allegedly, the team's catering to Young is why Collins was frustrated in the first place.

Personally, I'm tired of all the DLO talk. I don't think he's the worst player in the league. Obviously. But I also think he has some glaring flaws that make his contract (and style) a bit of an albatross, especially on the eve of possibly losing a #1 pick to acquire him.

It's been a perfect storm. The losing + the pick + hefty contract + decent but not great play from him + subtle signs of him "not getting it" + general frustration/malaise + everything else leaves him in an unenviable spot as the fanbase's latest whipping boy. But are we surprised? He's done nothing to ingratiate himself to fans, in part, because he hasn't really had a chance to.

Is it justified? Not entirely. Some of it is a bit unfair. At least not until he and Towns have more than 5 games together. Then, one of the sides will have more ammunition in its favor.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:It's odd to me when D'Angelo Russell is consistently made out to be a negative or non-impactful player by the you-know-who's on this board, but the trade ideas floated around by these same basketball minds are sending him out for a player that's clearly valuable around the league albeit to an unknown degree at this time. Like if D-Lo sucks and provides little or no value to winning on the court then why would Atlanta trade John Collins in any deal for him? Seems pretty irrational to me. Two plus two isn't equaling four here.

To be fair... oftentimes, ALL Wolves players are overrated. We also just saw a Beasley + Culver for Collins + Bogdonavich trade floated.

Right, but wouldn't that at least be understandable if it came from someone who was high on or felt positively about those Wolves players that were included in the deal? Like if I proposed D'Angelo Russell for John Collins it would be because I feel like both are very valuable players and maybe the fit or team situation would be my reasoning. But if someone that thinks Russell is merely meh or just okay were to suggest the same deal -- while being high on the incoming player -- wouldn't it be a little bizarre? For comparison's sake, that would be like me proposing Ricky Rubio for Jamal Murray. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how that works.

I hear you. But we don't know for certain who's in on those hypothetical deals with DLO. For what it's worth... there is 0% chance Atlanta would consider Russell.

That team is built around Trae Young. Heck, that's why Collins is on his way out in the first place... and allegedly, the team's catering to Young is why Collins was frustrated in the first place.

Personally, I'm tired of all the DLO talk. I don't think he's the worst player in the league. Obviously. But I also think he has some glaring flaws that make his contract (and style) a bit of an albatross, especially on the eve of possibly losing a #1 pick to acquire him.

It's been a perfect storm. The losing + the pick + decent but not great play from him + subtle signs of him "not getting it" + general frustration/malaise + everything else leaves him in an unenviable spot as the fanbase's latest whipping boy. But are we surprised? He's done nothing to ingratiate himself to fans, in part, because he hasn't really had a chance to.

Is it justified? Not entirely. Some of it is a bit unfair. At least not until he and Towns have more than 5 games together. Then, one of the sides will have more ammunition in its favor.

I don't disagree there is far too much DLO talk on this board for a guy who isn't even playing, Abe, but let's get back to the point of this thread: Is Collins available, do we want him, and what would it take to get him? Some of the deals that have been thrown out here are far short of what I think Atlanta is looking for. If you read some of the Hawks fan boards and some of the beat writers, they are very high on Collins and see getting a superstar or near superstar for him. I like Beasley's offensive game and his intensity, but I don't think he is what the Hawks have in mind. And adding pieces like Culver and Juancho to the mix may be subtractive rather than additive. We just don't have that much to offer that is attractive.

I think names like KAT, Russell and maybe Edwards have to be in the conversation to get their attention...otherwise another team will trump us with a solid player and a pick in next year's draft...an asset we can't offer (and picks 3 years out are tough to sell to a fan base). I don't want to trade KAT, and Ant is too intriguing for me to give up on at age 19. So that leaves DLO as the one guy who I would offer who might get the Hawks to at least return our phone call. He's not my type of player and he doesn't appeal to many others on this board either, but he obviously has some cachet around the league because 5 different GM's have acquired him in his 6 years (but of course, 4 of them have jettisoned him within 2 years). I can see Atlanta reasoning "He's a proven scorer who is still young, was the #2 pick in the draft just 6 years ago, and had the one positive season in 2018-9 when he was an All-Star and led his team to a 42-40 record. Maybe he just wasn't coached well the other years...we can coach him up, and he just might fit well next to Trae Young" (Even if I think that would be a disastrous pairing).

Add to the mix the report that DLO might not be happy here (yeah, I know it reportedly came from Wolfson...but as much as we malign him, he gets to actually talk to players and GMs, while we only talk with each other :). Who's more in the know...us or him?), and you have a good topic for discussion. Even if many of us are tired of discussing DLO. this is a new angle that seems to fit.

At least to me...

FNG...

It's going to be tough for the Wolves to land Collins. I don't think the team can even commit to a draft pick until 2024 right now because of the Stepien rule? So... why would Atlanta who thinks they're a playoff team settle for that?

IF they like Edwards... that is without question the guy who would be included. The question is whether Beasley goes, too.

As you noted, there's nobody else of real significant value on the entire roster, sans Towns. Russell's contract is simply too large and it's a terrible fit.

I can't see a plausible reason why Atlanta would want DLO. If they are interested in a deal with us, I would think Ant would be the #1 target. As far as the topic of DLO goes, he's the most polarizing player on the team. Of course he's going to get talked about. The strange thing about the topic is how personal it is with some. We've all seen the games this year. At a minimum he's been disappointing. But there are a few who refuse to acknowledge that fact. Why can't we be objective about everyone on the roster? I'm one of the biggest DLO detractors for sure, but even I've commented on how pure his stroke is when he has time to get set. I've applauded when he's gotten hot a few times. I really think the personal nature of the debate is why it gets blown out of proportion. We're all Wolves fans for some reason. We don't need to be petty about these things.

Cool, coincidentally I feel like this is how the board viewed you and your unabashed love for wiggins. I also hate dlo. I also feel he didn't like what Ryan was doing so feel he has purposely played terrible as a way to stick it to ryan. To me that's even more reason why you deal him. That being said Atlanta doesnt want dlo.

But you guys are doing the whole bidding against ourselves deal again. If the deal isn't right then you don't do it. You don't deal Edwards for him. Beasley would be the top player I would possibly consider and I dont even like that. They will not get as much as they think. Overpaying collins is not much of a prized asset imo. We always overpay for everyone. Stop being desperate and start growing with smart moves that make sense.

crazysauce wrote:Cool, coincidentally I feel like this is how the board viewed you and your unabashed love for wiggins. I also hate dlo. I also feel he didn't like what Ryan was doing so feel he has purposely played terrible as a way to stick it to ryan. To me that's even more reason why you deal him. That being said Atlanta doesnt want dlo.

But you guys are doing the whole bidding against ourselves deal again. If the deal isn't right then you don't do it. You don't deal Edwards for him. Beasley would be the top player I would possibly consider and I dont even like that. They will not get as much as they think. Overpaying collins is not much of a prized asset imo. We always overpay for everyone. Stop being desperate and start growing with smart moves that make sense.

That's what I said, we need their 1st round pick included if it's Ant in the deal. Even though I think it's unlikely Ant becomes a great player, the chance is still there. His ceiling is much higher then Collins and if you as ATL are looking to deal Collins since you won't pay him and also want Ant you are going to have to pay up.

BTW Ant is maybe turning the corner this game, still a big maybe as we've seen flashes before. Consistency is what we need.

crazysauce wrote:Cool, coincidentally I feel like this is how the board viewed you and your unabashed love for wiggins. I also hate dlo. I also feel he didn't like what Ryan was doing so feel he has purposely played terrible as a way to stick it to ryan. To me that's even more reason why you deal him. That being said Atlanta doesnt want dlo.

But you guys are doing the whole bidding against ourselves deal again. If the deal isn't right then you don't do it. You don't deal Edwards for him. Beasley would be the top player I would possibly consider and I dont even like that. They will not get as much as they think. Overpaying collins is not much of a prized asset imo. We always overpay for everyone. Stop being desperate and start growing with smart moves that make sense.

I really liked Wiggins and wasn't shy about it. The difference is I could call him bad when he was bad. I also came to realize he wasn't going to be the guy we all hoped. In that way I thought I was pretty objective about him.

If you squint real tight, are you sure you can't see Pippen?

CoolBreeze44 wrote:If you squint real tight, are you sure you can't see Pippen?

Pippen was a great passer with real solid handles and vision. He was over shadowed my Mike (of course) but his offense was real nice. He could initiate offense, drive by guys and finish at an elite level, I'm not sure Jaden will have that high degree of skill. No knock on Jaden if he doesn't.

I see Jaden as potentially being a better defender in the long run. He has a real talent and length to guard guys and block shots. We all know Pippen was an all time great defender too.