Minnesota Sports Forum

Can anyone provide a logical and realistic alternative to the D'Angelo Russell trade? Keep in mind you'll need to include Andrew Wiggins to make it happen. What player are you acquiring that's of equal or better value than Russell? How are you making that happen without giving up a first-round pick?

If anyone has any suggestions that seem legitimate and want to play along, I'd love to hear them. I sincerely don't think Minnesota could have done any better than they did.

I don't disagree Cam.

Having said that, it's possible to approve of the trade and still not be a big fan of DLO. He's the lesser of two disappointments in my opinion. I'm not convinced he or KAT are good leaders, but I will agree that KAT + DLO is > than KAT + Wiggins.

Q12543 wrote:I don't disagree Cam.

Having said that, it's possible to approve of the trade and still not be a big fan of DLO. He's the lesser of two disappointments in my opinion. I'm not convinced he or KAT are good leaders, but I will agree that KAT + DLO is > than KAT + Wiggins.

I can appreciate that stance. The value was clearly there for Minnesota even if you have questions about D-Lo's game.

DLO has been in the league 5 years and here is his plus minus stats for each year on a per game basis courtesy of NBA.com:

Lakers (2015/16): -6.8 (11th of 15 on team)
Lakers (2016/17): - 5.7 (17th of 18 on team)
Nets (2017/18): - 3.8 (20th of 22 on team)
Nets (2018/19) + 0.3 (8th of 19 on team, DLO's replacement All-Star appearance)
Warriors (2019/20): -7.0 (20th of 22 on team)
Wolves (2019/20):-1.8 (11th of 24 on team)

I think the only max player that rivals DLO in bad plus/minus is Wiggins. I think Wiggins and DLO (outside of injured guys like Wall) have the two worst contracts in the NBA. To give up a juicy draft pick for DLO's albatross of a contract is another bad move in a long history of bad moves and the reason I have no hope for this franchise until the Wolves get a new owner, hire a smart GM, and the Wolves commit to building thru the draft and stop making stupid shortcut moves.

KG4Ever wrote:DLO has been in the league 5 years and here is his plus minus stats for each year on a per game basis courtesy of NBA.com:

Lakers (2015/16): -6.8 (11th of 15 on team)
Lakers (2016/17): - 5.7 (17th of 18 on team)
Nets (2017/18): - 3.8 (20th of 22 on team)
Nets (2018/19) + 0.3 (8th of 19 on team, DLO's replacement All-Star appearance)
Warriors (2019/20): -7.0 (20th of 22 on team)
Wolves (2019/20):-1.8 (11th of 24 on team)

I think the only max player that rivals DLO in bad plus/minus is Wiggins. I think Wiggins and DLO (outside of injured guys like Wall) have the two worst contracts in the NBA. To give up a juicy draft pick for DLO's albatross of a contract is another bad move in a long history of bad moves and the reason I have no hope for this franchise until the Wolves get a new owner, hire a smart GM, and the Wolves commit to building thru the draft and stop making stupid shortcut moves.

I generally agree with you on this, KG4.

Addressing Cam's question, I don't know that I can come up with a better realistic deal for Wiggins. One idea I mentioned during the season was dealing Wiggins to the Hornets for Batum and their rights to Cleveland's 2nd round pick in this year's draft. Batum' s contract will be expiring next season, which means he will become a tradable asset or a short-term financial burden at worst. Another high 2nd round pick this year would be a valuable additional asset to have. And we'd still have our 1st and 2nd round picks next season.

I'll return to my mantra that building a championship contender in a small or mid-market city is all about making good draft decisions and very good asset management. I'd like to have the draft assets we gave up for Russell, an extra 2nd round pick this year and and expiring Batum contract right now to go with KAT and Beasley. Then imagine where we'd be if Rosas had drafted Tyler Herro and used Saric to acquire some other asset.

I've acknowledged that I could turn out to be wrong about Russell and I hope that's the case. Maybe he's turned the corner and we'll see him build on his one individually good season in Brooklyn to become a star who helps the Wolves win. The Wolves have made a lot of deals and free-agent acquisitions over the years that I absolutely hated. The Russell deal isn't one of those. It's not a deal I would have made. And I agree with you that it will probably turn out to be another one of those short-cut moves that generally don't work. But I can't get too exorcised over a deal that brought in a 24-year old who was selected to the Eastern Conference all-star team a season ago and simultaneously rid the team of Wiggins. And I can't overlook the fact that he and KAT are tight. Like it or not, making you #1 all-star player happy is a part of what NBA organizations need to do these days.

So we'll see. There is room for reasonably disagreement on the Russell deal. Having dealt future picks for a guy Rosas clearly sees as the team's second star along with KAT, I hope he gets back to basics this year and drafts a future all-star. He's well positioned to do that with the #1, 17 and 33 picks.

lipoli390 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:DLO has been in the league 5 years and here is his plus minus stats for each year on a per game basis courtesy of NBA.com:

Lakers (2015/16): -6.8 (11th of 15 on team)
Lakers (2016/17): - 5.7 (17th of 18 on team)
Nets (2017/18): - 3.8 (20th of 22 on team)
Nets (2018/19) + 0.3 (8th of 19 on team, DLO's replacement All-Star appearance)
Warriors (2019/20): -7.0 (20th of 22 on team)
Wolves (2019/20):-1.8 (11th of 24 on team)

I think the only max player that rivals DLO in bad plus/minus is Wiggins. I think Wiggins and DLO (outside of injured guys like Wall) have the two worst contracts in the NBA. To give up a juicy draft pick for DLO's albatross of a contract is another bad move in a long history of bad moves and the reason I have no hope for this franchise until the Wolves get a new owner, hire a smart GM, and the Wolves commit to building thru the draft and stop making stupid shortcut moves.

I generally agree with you on this, KG4.

Addressing Cam's question, I don't know that I can come up with a better realistic deal for Wiggins. One idea I mentioned during the season was dealing Wiggins to the Hornets for Batum and their rights to Cleveland's 2nd round pick in this year's draft. Batum' s contract will be expiring next season, which means he will become a tradable asset or a short-term financial burden at worst. Another high 2nd round pick this year would be a valuable additional asset to have. And we'd still have our 1st and 2nd round picks next season.

I'll return to my mantra that building a championship contender in a small or mid-market city is all about making good draft decisions and very good asset management. I'd like to have the draft assets we gave up for Russell, an extra 2nd round pick this year and and expiring Batum contract right now to go with KAT and Beasley. Then imagine where we'd be if Rosas had drafted Tyler Herro and used Saric to acquire some other asset.

I've acknowledged that I could turn out to be wrong about Russell and I hope that's the case. Maybe he's turned the corner and we'll see him build on his one individually good season in Brooklyn to become a star who helps the Wolves win. The Wolves have made a lot of deals and free-agent acquisitions over the years that I absolutely hated. The Russell deal isn't one of those. It's not a deal I would have made. And I agree with you that it will probably turn out to be another one of those short-cut moves that generally don't work. But I can't get too exorcised over a deal that brought in a 24-year old who was selected to the Eastern Conference all-star team a season ago and simultaneously rid the team of Wiggins. And I can't overlook the fact that he and KAT are tight. Like it or not, making you #1 all-star player happy is a part of what NBA organizations need to do these days.

So we'll see. There is room for reasonably disagreement on the Russell deal. Having dealt future picks for a guy Rosas clearly sees as the team's second star along with KAT, I hope he gets back to basics this year and drafts a future all-star. He's well positioned to do that with the #1, 17 and 33 picks.

Beasley/Batum/KAT and whoever the first pick is this year is probably the worst team in the league next year and if by some miracle it's not then it's a bottom 5 team again. Is the goal to just rebuild forever and hope Towns is ok with getting smoked every night waiting for guys who won't be true game changers until his contract is ready to expire? I get you want to build through the draft, but you may as well just trade away Towns if you aren't willing to give him actual help now and are banking on picks and cap space over several years to get us out of the dungeon of the league. Everyone talks about windows trying to line up the most talent for the longest window. Towns' window is open now. We've got 3 years to convince him to stay. These guys in the draft are already 5 years behind him which means their prime is no longer a great fit next to his. People didn't like the Jimmy deal because he was 28 with Towns and Wiggins at 22 so their windows didn't "match up". Well that is next year for Towns when he will be 6 years older (7 if high school players are in the draft) than the top prospects so if it wasn't the "right" window before with Jimmy why is it ok now? Towns and Wiggins weren't ready to be leaders nor consistent winners by 22-23 with Jimmy and if the next crop of prospects under this scenario follow the same timing then it will be just in time for Towns to leave us at 27/28 and start the rebuild all over again.

Luka Doncic is 21.
Jayson Tatum is 22.
Jaylen Brown is 23.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is 22.
Donovan Mitchell is 23.
Jamal Murray is 23.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Luka Doncic is 21.
Jayson Tatum is 22.
Jaylen Brown is 23.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is 22.
Donovan Mitchell is 23.
Jamal Murray is 23.

So that's 6 out of how many people drafted in that same time period? So we just have to be near flawless at prospect evaluation for a rebuild through the draft to work. Got it. 6/180 (3 years in this case) is a 3% chance to hit that caliber of player and we don't develop players well hence the "if our prospects follow the same timeline our high end young talent had".

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Luka Doncic is 21.
Jayson Tatum is 22.
Jaylen Brown is 23.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is 22.
Donovan Mitchell is 23.
Jamal Murray is 23.

So that's 6 out of how many people drafted in that same time period? So we just have to be near flawless at prospect evaluation for a rebuild through the draft to work. Got it. 6/180 (3 years in this case) is a 3% chance to hit that caliber of player and we don't develop players well hence the "if our prospects follow the same timeline our high end young talent had".

The Warriors won 47 games in the 2011-12 season, 51 games in the 2012 season and a record 73 games in the4 2013-14 season. Klay Thompson and Draymond Green were both 21, 22 and 23 years in their 2nd 3rd and 4th seasons during that span. Curry was age 23, 24 and 25.

The NBA is more of a young guy's game than ever before. Different players develop at different speeds, but it's typical for great players to come into their own in their 2nd and 3rd seasons while in their early 20s. But age isn't the issue here. The question is whether DLO was the right guy to pair with KAT as the core of an eventual championship contender. Does he have the talent, temperament and complementary skill set to be that guy? My sense is that he doesn't. And for that reason, I wouldn't have given up the picks to bring him here. But I see the argument on the other side. Rosas didn't have another potential all-star on the roster to pair with KAT when he took over and he messed up in last year's draft. He was also stuck with the Wiggins contract. So Rosas' decision to do the DLO deal is totally understandable.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Luka Doncic is 21.
Jayson Tatum is 22.
Jaylen Brown is 23.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is 22.
Donovan Mitchell is 23.
Jamal Murray is 23.

So that's 6 out of how many people drafted in that same time period? So we just have to be near flawless at prospect evaluation for a rebuild through the draft to work. Got it. 6/180 (3 years in this case) is a 3% chance to hit that caliber of player and we don't develop players well hence the "if our prospects follow the same timeline our high end young talent had".

The Warriors won 47 games in the 2011-12 season, 51 games in the 2012 season and a record 73 games in the4 2013-14 season. Klay Thompson and Draymond Green were both 21, 22 and 23 years in their 2nd 3rd and 4th seasons during that span. Curry was age 23, 24 and 25.

The NBA is more of a young guy's game than ever before. Different players develop at different speeds, but it's typical for great players to come into their own in their 2nd and 3rd seasons while in their early 20s. But age isn't the issue here. The question is whether DLO was the right guy to pair with KAT as the core of an eventual championship contender. Does he have the talent, temperament and complementary skill set to be that guy? My sense is that he doesn't. And for that reason, I wouldn't have given up the picks to bring him here. But I see the argument on the other side. Rosas didn't have another potential all-star on the roster to pair with KAT when he took over and he messed up in last year's draft. He was also stuck with the Wiggins contract. So Rosas' decision to do the DLO deal is totally understandable.

It's always the exception to the rule that proves the strategy is best somehow even though it's only ever done by literally 1 team out of 30 every couple of years. "Well the Warriors drafted Steph, Klay and Draymond and won early" (failing to mention all the veteran talent around them that we don't have). "The Thunder drafted Westbrook, KD and Harden" (the only real pure draft strategy that built through the draft with little help from trades and FA's). "The Celtics drafted Tatum and Brown" (failing to mention they've been consistently flanked with veteran All-Stars like Kyrie, Horford, Kemba and a hurt Hayward). Always the "just draft good 4head" strategy after 20 years of having a horrible overall track record of drafting. There are two fold more teams who have tried and failed at that strategy which is why these are exceptions and not the norm.

There are a lot of great young players. It's not a young guys league. Half that list of 6 didn't make it out of the first round. Tatum and Brown are the two who might make it far in the playoffs on a stacked team around them. The veterans are slapping the young guns around right now (Jimmy and the Heat are taking Giannis and the Bucks lunch money right now after they took it all from the young Pacers squad in round 1, Kawhi and PG entertained Luka for a couple games and then just eviscerated Jokic/Murray and Denver last night).

We just don't have the same environment that enabled the success of all those exceptions to the rule. At what point do you start trying to win? Russell wasn't the move for you so let's say we don't make that trade and keep playing the lottery. When do we try to win around Towns? How much losing do you think a player can go through and still come out on top with that team long-term? How are we not just becoming the Pelicans in that scenario with KAT and no help every year until he leaves?