Ben Simmons Talk Revived

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

LOL. Your condescension is noted.

My point stands. Embiid is a superstar. Most superstars want to win now. So I hope the 76ers have his buy-in on being patient hoping that something will happen... eventually.

Abe we have probably seen this situation very similarly up to this point. Right now I think we have enough evidence to say that Simmons must be traded and there is a lot of reporting that says this was where it was headed months ago. This seems very similar to the Butler situation. This likely could have been resolved already but Morey was playing it exactly like Thibs did asking sky high for Simmons. Morey will come out better than Thibs/hamstring Scott Layden but the clock is literally ticking on this getting even worse.

The question is are the Sixers gonna do the best they can for right now in this season or load up for that next guy while winning what they can? You said patience...there are multiple ways Embiid could be patient. Morey could also be pissing him off (or do so eventually) by the way he is handling this. What is going to improve the Sixers situation by waiting?

Tangent:

Speaking of all those potential draft picks... remember when Houston offered the Wolves 4 draft picks for Butler?

We don't know the restrictions on them. Nor do we know how Butler in Houston would have played out, so they might not even be in rebuilding mode... but it's interesting how quickly things change.

It was only 3 years ago...

Harden
Paul
Capela
Tucker
Butler
Gordon

That was what Houston would have looked like. Instead, we have Gordon, Wood, Green, Tate, Porter and whoever else is there now. Essentially, about a 40-game difference.

[Lipoli390]

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

LOL. Your condescension is noted.

My point stands. Embiid is a superstar. Most superstars want to win now. So I hope the 76ers have his buy-in on being patient hoping that something will happen... eventually.

Abe we have probably seen this situation very similarly up to this point. Right now I think we have enough evidence to say that Simmons must be traded and there is a lot of reporting that says this was where it was headed months ago. This seems very similar to the Butler situation. This likely could have been resolved already but Morey was playing it exactly like Thibs did asking sky high for Simmons. Morey will come out better than Thibs/hamstring Scott Layden but the clock is literally ticking on this getting even worse.

The question is are the Sixers gonna do the best they can for right now in this season or load up for that next guy while winning what they can? You said patience...there are multiple ways Embiid could be patient. Morey could also be pissing him off (or do so eventually) by the way he is handling this. What is going to improve the Sixers situation by waiting?

Whether Morey is willing to wait and keep Simmons into the season (perhaps for the entire season) is an open question. Most reporting suggests that he won't given rift and acrimony that's developed between Simmons and the Sixers organization.

What Morey is willing to accept in return for Simmons if he doesn't wait is a separate question. My view is that he won't except a couple role players and a bunch of draft picks in the hope that he can turn those pick around in a year for the star he wants. That's way too speculative and, in the meantime, he will have squandered a precious season with Embiid healthy and in his prime. Therefore, I think Morey won't accept a deal that doesn't include high level starting players, including a high-caliber starting lead guard -- Russell and Beasley from the Wolves; VanVleet and Anunoby from the Raptors; Haliburton and Hield from the Kings; Brogdan and LeVert from the Pacers; McCollum, Covington and xx from Portland . . .. Even those combos might not be enough, in which case I think Morey will take Simmons into the season or offer sweeteners to Portland or Sacramento for Lillard of Fox.

If Morey decides to keep Simmons I think he'll play rather than pay millions of dollars per week in fines, piss off his teammates and sully his reputation. Simmons is a competitor and the Sixers had the best record in the East with their current roster, including Simmons.

The Butler situation was very different. Butler was acting out by directly antagonizing and mocking his teammates, especially the Wolves other star, KAT. He was also pissed about his contract situation. Moreover, the Wolves barely made the playoffs the previous season. Simmons has his max contract. He hasn't done anything to publicly antagonize or piss off any of his teammates and, in fact, Embiid recently tweeted that he likes playing with Simmons. Most important of all, the Sixers, with Simmons and Embiid, are an automatic title contender coming off a season where they had the best record in the East.

[Monster]

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. Apparently one more before the next time it has to be said again.

Philadelphia is not rebuilding. They are in win-now mode. Everyone here agrees with that. However, they are not going to get back a player or a combination of players in return that makes them a better team next year than they just had last year with Ben Simmons. Period. It just isn't going to happen. If you disagree with that, you either don't appropriately value Simmons' ability on both ends of the court, or you fail to comprehend the situation that the Sixers are currently in when it comes to the trade market.

With that said, there will be a time in the near future where a star player -- one equally as good as Simmons or even better -- requests out of his current situation. That's not if, but when. It's going to happen. The clock is ticking on Damian Lillard's days in Portland. The clock is ticking on Bradley Beal's days in Washington. The clock is ticking on Paul George and/or Kawhi Leonard's days in Los Angeles. The point of the matter is that if you can't trade Simmons for a player better than he is right now, then the next best option is to liquidate him into assets that will appeal to these teams with stars that potentially want out at a later date. Is everyone still following the idea I'm mapping out? There is no rebuild occurring. There's only collecting more assets to hopefully turn around and package them for a different star player sometime in the future -- because said star player is not available right now.

LOL. Your condescension is noted.

My point stands. Embiid is a superstar. Most superstars want to win now. So I hope the 76ers have his buy-in on being patient hoping that something will happen... eventually.

Abe we have probably seen this situation very similarly up to this point. Right now I think we have enough evidence to say that Simmons must be traded and there is a lot of reporting that says this was where it was headed months ago. This seems very similar to the Butler situation. This likely could have been resolved already but Morey was playing it exactly like Thibs did asking sky high for Simmons. Morey will come out better than Thibs/hamstring Scott Layden but the clock is literally ticking on this getting even worse.

The question is are the Sixers gonna do the best they can for right now in this season or load up for that next guy while winning what they can? You said patience...there are multiple ways Embiid could be patient. Morey could also be pissing him off (or do so eventually) by the way he is handling this. What is going to improve the Sixers situation by waiting?

Whether Morey is willing to wait and keep Simmons into the season (perhaps for the entire season) is an open question. Most reporting suggests that he won't given rift and acrimony that's developed between Simmons and the Sixers organization.

What Morey is willing to accept in return for Simmons if he doesn't wait is a separate question. My view is that he won't except a couple role players and a bunch of draft picks in the hope that he can turn those pick around in a year for the star he wants. That's way too speculative and, in the meantime, he will have squandered a precious season with Embiid healthy and in his prime. Therefore, I think Morey won't accept a deal that doesn't include high level starting players, including a high-caliber starting lead guard -- Russell and Beasley from the Wolves; VanVleet and Anunoby from the Raptors; Haliburton and Hield from the Kings; Brogdan and LeVert from the Pacers; McCollum, Covington and xx from Portland . . .. Even those combos might not be enough, in which case I think Morey will take Simmons into the season or offer sweeteners to Portland or Sacramento for Lillard of Fox.

If Morey decides to keep Simmons I think he'll play rather than pay millions of dollars per week in fines, piss off his teammates and sully his reputation. Simmons is a competitor and the Sixers had the best record in the East with their current roster, including Simmons.

The Butler situation was very different. Butler was acting out by directly antagonizing and mocking his teammates, especially the Wolves other star, KAT. He was also pissed about his contract situation. Moreover, the Wolves barely made the playoffs the previous season. Simmons has his max contract. He hasn't done anything to publicly antagonize or piss off any of his teammates and, in fact, Embiid recently tweeted that he likes playing with Simmons. Most important of all, the Sixers, with Simmons and Embiid, are an automatic title contender coming off a season where they had the best record in the East.

Lip do you really think Simmons is going to play again for the Sixers? At this point I do not and I'm usually more of like believe it when I see it. Fines for not showing up are $250,000 a week. That's not a small amount but he might find paying a million or so dollars is worth it to get his point across. Also the Sixers don't have to fine him that money as the Wolves did with Butler.

Personally I think this situation is enough similar and the way the executives in charge have played it to compare them. Both of them were in tough positions if they traded their guys too because both teams if they stayed the course were in some way contending for a Finals run IF they stay healthy. The problem in both situations is that it seems apparent it's not going to work those players staying there. The league seems to know Simmons isn't staying there I don't think it's hard to figure that out. Thibs was legit trying to kee Butler and Morey has been trying to wait for another star. That's a difference but we are headed towards another player that wants out and I'm really not sure what waiting too much longer is going to do to benefit the Sixers. Name a good NBA player in the last couple years that has said they wanted out that didn't get their wish.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Question:

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Patrick Beverley, Malik Beasley, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 40-45?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Fred VanVleet, Danny Green, OG Anunoby, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Tyrese Haliburton, Danny Green, Harrison Barnes, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

What team is trading them an assortment of players that makes them significantly better than the rest? What about better than last year? The Sixers won 68-percent of their games in 2020-2021, which extrapolates to a 56-win season under normal circumstances. Are any of these teams post-trade matching that success let alone surpassing it? Please, entertain me.

No takers on this one? I'm trying to see how these "win-now" packages from other bidders truly separate themselves from what the Wolves would prefer to offer. Are VanVleet/Anunoby and/or Haliburton/Barnes propelling the Sixers to a 50-win season? How much better, if any, is the Sixers' record with those players over Beverley/Beasley? Does it make up the difference if Gersson Rosas is the executive offering the most draft capital?

[Duke13]

Halliburton has by far the most value of any player mentioned in your scenario. Vanvleet and OG impact winning way more the Bev and Beasley. Bev is way past his prime, so injury prone, he can help a playoff team down the stretch, so I think a team looking for 75 games at 25 minutes a game wouldn't be looking for Bev to fill that role. Halliburton, VanVleet and OG are all ahead of Beasley and Bev. Bev is last on that list by a wide margin! Next list please.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Halliburton has by far the most value of any player mentioned in your scenario. Vanvleet and OG impact winning way more the Bev and Beasley. Bev is way past his prime, so injury prone, he can help a playoff team down the stretch, so I think a team looking for 75 games at 25 minutes a game wouldn't be looking for Bev to fill that role. Halliburton, VanVleet and OG are all ahead of Beasley and Bev. Bev is last on that list by a wide margin! Next list please.

We're not talking about trade value anymore since the conversation has since pivoted to the Sixers being in win-now mode. Since very few here believe Philadelphia will take the deal that best sets themselves up for a trade for another star, I've resorted to asking the simple questions. How much better (in wins) are the Sixers with those player packages? Are any of those new cores leading Philadelphia to a 50-win season? Will the Sixers be a better team than they were last year? Keep in mind, they had a 56-win pace with Ben Simmons.

If they're not getting better, or coming anywhere close to the level they were at last year, then why would they prioritize these packages over one that conceivably gets them closer to a star player to pair with Joel Embiid?

[AbeVigodaLive]

Question:

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Patrick Beverley, Malik Beasley, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 40-45?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Fred VanVleet, Danny Green, OG Anunoby, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

How many games in an 82-game season does a starting five of Tyrese Haliburton, Danny Green, Harrison Barnes, Tobias Harris, and Joel Embiid win? Somewhere between 42-47?

What team is trading them an assortment of players that makes them significantly better than the rest? What about better than last year? The Sixers won 68-percent of their games in 2020-2021, which extrapolates to a 56-win season under normal circumstances. Are any of these teams post-trade matching that success let alone surpassing it? Please, entertain me.

No takers on this one? I'm trying to see how these "win-now" packages from other bidders truly separate themselves from what the Wolves would prefer to offer. Are VanVleet/Anunoby and/or Haliburton/Barnes propelling the Sixers to a 50-win season? How much better, if any, is the Sixers' record with those players over Beverley/Beasley? Does it make up the difference if Gersson Rosas is the executive offering the most draft capital?

One interesting angle about Beasley in Philadelphia... we all agree that his best attribute is perimeter shooting. But he lacks playmaking chops, defense and common sense (apparently).

The 76ers already have Seth Curry. A career 47% shooter in the playoffs... on three pointers.

It's arguable that Curry is better than Beasley... and half the price. Or, are you suggesting they can play together at the same time? In addition, Beverley is yet another guard who can shoot but isn't great at creating for others. In any event, I think that redundancy makes the Wolves proposed package worse than the others on paper.



[Note: I think the Toronto package pushes Philly above 50 wins. I like both of those guys better than anybody the Wolves would be sending. And it's a better fit... although VanVleet and Curry would be a pretty small pairing.]

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

One interesting angle about Beasley in Philadelphia... we all agree that his best attribute is perimeter shooting. But he lacks playmaking chops, defense and common sense (apparently).

The 76ers already have Seth Curry. A career 47% shooter in the playoffs... on three pointers.

It's arguable that Curry is better than Beasley... and half the price. Or, are you suggesting they can play together at the same time? In addition, Beverley is yet another guard who can shoot but isn't great at creating for others. In any event, I think that redundancy makes the Wolves proposed package worse than the others on paper.

[Note: I think the Toronto package pushes Philly above 50 wins. I like both of those guys better than anybody the Wolves would be sending. And it's a better fit... although VanVleet and Curry would be a pretty small pairing.]

Malik Beasley isn't just an outside shooter, though. He's a volume scorer, albeit a limited one. Or at least that's what he's been in Minnesota for 50 games. Averaging just under 20-points per game with decent efficiency. That's something Seth Curry hasn't come close to doing or showing that he could do at the NBA level. Beasley's also bigger, more athletic, and younger than Curry. I think it's very likely that he would start.

Finally, someone answers the question. Thank you for that. I agree that the Toronto package is the most "win-now" of the bunch, but to what degree?

Fred VanVleet and OG Anunoby led Toronto -- along with Kyle Lowry and Pascal Siakam -- to a 27-45 record last year. They're going to replace Ben Simmons in Philadelphia seamlessly? They'll be responsible for keeping the Sixers in title contention? I don't see it. I think VanVleet got exposed last year when he's asked to do too much. I'm not even sure the Raptors will include Anunoby in their final offer, but if he is, how much better can he be than what he already is?

[kekgeek]

I'm sort of with Cams logic here. Players like Dlo, FVF, OG, brogdon, Haliburton, Hield are all really good players and would help the 76ers win but none of this players put the 76ers in the top tier in the East with the Nets and the Bucks. They are going to be in that tier with the Heat (think the heat could enter that tier 1), and the Hawks. So what is the point of trading Simmons if you are in "win-now" mode if the players you are getting back don't help you become a legit championship contender.

Now you have to think about it from Blazers and Wizards prospective. If you are trading your long time star player what would you rather have. Haliburton, Hield and 4 76ers 1st. (There are reports the Kings won't trade Haliburton) FVF, OG and 4 76ers 1st. Both of those trades make the Blazers probable boarderline play in teams what sucks for them after trading their star

Or would they rather have 28 million in expiring contracts in Pat Bev and Prince. A solid player and contract in Beasley, Maxey and 8 1st round picks in from the Wolves and 76ers. That really Jumpstart the rebuild for those teams.

The 76ers would be doing what sort of the Thunder are doing without the total rebuild. Whenever a star asks out they will be able to offer 8 1st round draft imminently along with a 20 ppg scorer in Beasley and expiring contracts. I completely understand Cams logic here

[AbeVigodaLive]

One interesting angle about Beasley in Philadelphia... we all agree that his best attribute is perimeter shooting. But he lacks playmaking chops, defense and common sense (apparently).

The 76ers already have Seth Curry. A career 47% shooter in the playoffs... on three pointers.

It's arguable that Curry is better than Beasley... and half the price. Or, are you suggesting they can play together at the same time? In addition, Beverley is yet another guard who can shoot but isn't great at creating for others. In any event, I think that redundancy makes the Wolves proposed package worse than the others on paper.

[Note: I think the Toronto package pushes Philly above 50 wins. I like both of those guys better than anybody the Wolves would be sending. And it's a better fit... although VanVleet and Curry would be a pretty small pairing.]

Malik Beasley isn't just an outside shooter, though. He's a volume scorer, albeit a limited one. Or at least that's what he's been in Minnesota for 50 games. Averaging just under 20-points per game with decent efficiency. That's something Seth Curry hasn't come close to doing or showing that he could do at the NBA level. Beasley's also bigger, more athletic, and younger than Curry. I think it's very likely that he would start.

Finally, someone answers the question. Thank you for that. I agree that the Toronto package is the most "win-now" of the bunch, but to what degree?

Fred VanVleet and OG Anunoby led Toronto -- along with Kyle Lowry and Pascal Siakam -- to a 27-45 record last year. They're going to replace Ben Simmons in Philadelphia seamlessly? They'll be responsible for keeping the Sixers in title contention? I don't see it. I think VanVleet got exposed last year when he's asked to do too much. I'm not even sure the Raptors will include Anunoby in their final offer, but if he is, how much better can he be than what he already is?

Unless you think Curry is suddenly taking an inexplicable step back, age isn't really a factor. He's still improving. And there's just so much player movement to look at these mid-tier players as building blocks several years down the line. But it's irrelevant. Why would the 76ers bring in a mercurial young guy who just got out of jail to replace Curry, who he's marginally better/worse than? Either way, there's a lot of redundancy.

As for Anunoby: He's improved one way or another for four straight seasons. He's coming off a season where he upped his scoring by about 5ppg without compromising efficiency. He could continue the progression, right?

As for last season, Toronto was playing in Tampa in a Covid season. And then tanked to the finish... losing 11 of their final 13... and the final 7 in a row without Anunoby. Considering previous success, it could be the anomaly.

Meanwhile, Beasley is 12 - 39 in a Wolves uniform, so I don't know if knocking the Raptors cats for having one bad season is the best route here.

Bottom line... I don't think Beasley, Beverley and Prince are as good or as promising as the Toronto package. Each of the Wolves guys come with baggage, including Beasley who might be off some teams' radars entirely until he shows an extended run of responsibility.

Maybe Morey feels differently. Would be interesting to gauge some Philly fans on these speculative trades...