Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:That's true I'm not a Rubio guy like most on the board but I wouldnt advocate for picking Dunn just because of that. I don't think there is much comparison with Dunn's offensive potential compared to Rubio's. He has the ability to beat his man off the dribble and score at the rim. Something Rubio is historically bad at. And his shot is much improved, his form is very good, so I don't see much comparison there either. I promise I'll try and not make this into a Rubio bashing rant, it's more I really like Dunn's potential. Look at the four PG's left in the playoffs, all 4 are their teams 1-2 offensive option.

I'm not a believer that there is any major positional or functional formula to success in the NBA (other than being good at both offense and defense - duh!). Obviously the 3-point shot - and defending it - have increased in importance, but otherwise, I don't buy that you need your PG to be a top 2 or 3 offensive option. Here are examples:

Heat (Chalmers)
Dallas (Kidd)
Lakers (Fisher)
Bulls (Harper)
Rockets (Smith)
Bulls (Paxson)
Celtics (Johnson)

Some of those squads won multiple titles too. In fact, the teams closest to being dynasties over the past few decades were more likely, not less likely, to have the PG as more of a role player and table setter than one of the key go-to guys.

That's true...

But look at what most of those teams did have. The Heat, Lakers, Bulls and Celtics had all-world playmakers at other positions. Those guys were PGs on the defensive end... they weren't the primary creator on offense.

Only Dallas and Houston break the norm. (and Houston had Drexler one of those seasons... and no Jordan in the L both seasons.)

Right, and in Rubio's case, he already is an all-world play maker. What he isn't is an all-world shot maker. Somehow he's been able to get guys tons of easy looks without having to be a great scorer himself. There is no reason to believe that will suddenly stop being the case.

And I think KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine will continue to grow in their ability to make plays for others. I'm not sure any of them will become the next Larry Bird or LeBron James in terms of passing ability, but I'm not sure they need to be either (but I wouldn't put it past KAT to become one of the all time great passing big men to ever play the game).

Duke13 wrote:Definitely good arguments and examples but the game is so different now than it was in the 80's, 90's, 2000's. It's all about spreading the defense out with the threat the 3 pt shot and the ability to drive and kick.

Is it though? The Thunder and Toronto have gotten pretty far without being elite in this area.

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:Definitely good arguments and examples but the game is so different now than it was in the 80's, 90's, 2000's. It's all about spreading the defense out with the threat the 3 pt shot and the ability to drive and kick.

Is it though? The Thunder and Toronto have gotten pretty far without being elite in this area.

And the Spurs would argue with this as well.

I believe Dunn's defense and athletic ability is what makes him so appealing at 5. I think he would fit Thibs' style perfectly and also compliment LaVine well in the backcourt. I also look in the western conference and see Curry, Westbrook, and Harden, having an elite defensive PG would be huge in helping the team. Yes we have Rubio, but sadly the guy has only played the full 82 once and struggles to shoot 38% from the field. So draft Dunn as future competition to Ricky, if Ricky stays healthy and improves his shot then yay us. If Dunn emerges and becomes better than Ricky then yay us. Having two great defensive PGs can't hurt and having backcourt depth is needed for a playoff team.

I agree with Q. To contend for a championship you need elite talent. And within your group of elite talent, you need elite scorers and good defenders. It really doesn't matter from what positions you get your points. A really good playmaking PG can facilitate scoring by other players. But even a PG who is little more than a spot-up shooter scoring off the ball can win a championship provided he has elite talent and scorers around him.

The Bulls had Jordan for scoring and had both Jordan and Pippen for defense teamed with a spot-up shooting PG in Paxon and later in Kerr. The Heat had Shaq and Wade and a couple years later they had LeBron, Wade and Bosh to go with spot-up shooting Chalmers. The Mavs had Nowitski to go with playmaking/non-shooting PG Jason Kidd. The Celtics had Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen to go with playmaking/non-shooting PG Rondo. The Lakers had spot-up shooter Fisher at PG to go with scorers Kobe and Shaq. The list goes on.

The Wolves have a collection of potentially elite players who can all be big-time scorers in KAT, Wiggins and Zach. Both KAT and Wiggins look like they'll be perennial 20+ PPG scorers and Zach has the potential to be at least as productive as a scorer. KAT and Wiggins both have the potential to be elite defenders and Flip thought the same of LaVine. We have other young scorers on the roster in Belly and Shabazz. Gorgui is also a decent scorer. How far the Wolves go in the years ahead turns almost entirely on the development of these players - especially KAT, Wiggins and Zach -- along with some additions to provide more depth.

In light of all this, it makes no sense to worry about the PG position. We happen to have an elite playmaker as well as an excellent defender and rebounder at that position. That would seem to be the perfect fit on a team filled with elite talent and potentially elite scorers at two or three of the other positions. In fact, switching to a ball-dominant scoring PG seems senseless given the scoring prowess of our young potential stars.

lipoli390 wrote:I agree with Q. To contend for a championship you need elite talent. And within your group of elite talent, you need elite scorers and good defenders. It really doesn't matter from what positions you get your points. A really good playmaking PG can facilitate scoring by other players. But even a PG who is little more than a spot-up shooter scoring off the ball can win a championship provided he has elite talent and scorers around him.

The Bulls had Jordan for scoring and had both Jordan and Pippen for defense teamed with a spot-up shooting PG in Paxon and later in Kerr. The Heat had Shaq and Wade and a couple years later they had LeBron, Wade and Bosh to go with spot-up shooting Chalmers. The Mavs had Nowitski to go with playmaking/non-shooting PG Jason Kidd. The Celtics had Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen to go with playmaking/non-shooting PG Rondo. The Lakers had spot-up shooter Fisher at PG to go with scorers Kobe and Shaq. The list goes on.

The Wolves have a collection of potentially elite players who can all be big-time scorers in KAT, Wiggins and Zach. Both KAT and Wiggins look like they'll be perennial 20+ PPG scorers and Zach has the potential to be at least as productive as a scorer. KAT and Wiggins both have the potential to be elite defenders and Flip thought the same of LaVine. We have other young scorers on the roster in Belly and Shabazz. Gorgui is also a decent scorer. How far the Wolves go in the years ahead turns almost entirely on the development of these players - especially KAT, Wiggins and Zach -- along with some additions to provide more depth.

In light of all this, it makes no sense to worry about the PG position. We happen to have an elite playmaker as well as an excellent defender and rebounder at that position. That would seem to be the perfect fit on a team filled with elite talent and potentially elite scorers at two or three of the other positions. In fact, switching to a ball-dominant scoring PG seems senseless given the scoring prowess of our young potential stars.

I think injury history and the fact that we have no real backup would be a good enough reason to look at a pg even without looking at the holes in Ricky's game. Ricky is ball dominant right now, but he is ball dominant without being able to space the floor right now. I think some legitimate competition would be great for this team. If we could find a 1 who can run an offense and space the floor, why not? At the very least our second unit could use it.

I like the idea of trading down and dragging for position (sabonis and baldwin) or maker/Valentine .

Doper - I have no problem with adding a PG who can shoot. I just wouldn't give up any significant assets to get him. Signing a shooting vet PG as a FA could make sense. Drafting Dunn could make sense as well, although his shooting is a question mark. I'm actually encouraged by the play of Tyus Jones after the all-star break. He can distribute and shoot. My only point is that PG shouldn't be our main focus for improvement.

We need more depth and we could use more 3-point shooting regardless of position. We could use more defense and rebgounding up front, especially if Pek remains unable top contribute. If replacing Ricky is high on the to-do list of our front office, we're in trouble. But by all indications, that's not what Thibs is focusing on. He identified our two primary needs: (1) improved 3-point shooting, and (2) improved defense. I would add rebounding to the list. Ricky gives us defense and rebounding from the PG position. And to the extent he has any potential for improvement as a shooter, it's on set 3-point shots.

Personally, I'd like to sign Jeremy Lin as a FA. I also like Kirk Hinrich, but I'm not sure he has any game left.

Jeremy Lin would be a good addition.

I'm completely torn between Dunn, Murray and Hields. Will trust Thibs and Layden make the right decision.

There is some talk of Phoenix going for Jaylen Brown. Assuming Boston takes Bender, that would leave us with both Buddy Hield and Kris Dunn as possibilities. That would be a tough call. I'd be happy with either or trading down while targeting Luwawu, Baldwin or Valentine if we can get an additonal top 25 pick to boot. The idea would be to address two needs in the draft: a two-way guard, two-way wing and a good big. Lots of good options.

The Spurs circa 2014 would beg to differ. Best basketball I've seen played.

I don't know if I would call Dunn's shooting a question mark, he improved quite a bit and his form is rather good. There seems to be a lot of early buzz surrounding Dunn right now nationally, a lot of people have him as the 3rd best prospect. I understand it's not gospel but he's pretty highly thought of, with some thinking he's a potential all star.