Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Dwight in Orlando was a superstar. There is no debating it. You can dismiss it if you'd like, but that guy took the Magic to the Finals with a team that was built 100% around him. Not many guys have beat LeBron in a playoff series and he was one of them.

Something to note: Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Davis. What do all of them have in common? They all play or played great defense. They defended the rim and anchored their team's effort on that end of the floor. There have been guys like Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, DeMarcus Cousins, etc. who can score at will. The reason they aren't superstars is because offense is just half of the game of basketball.

I think Dwight had a superstar year, don't disagree that his run with Orlando was impressive. I just don't think he has sustained his play enough for me to consider him a superstar. But even if you include him there has been a talent gap up front until recently. I wouldnt say that AL and brooks could score at will myself, Shaq could score at will. Neither AL or Brooks ever even sniffed the scoring title. Kevin Love may be the closest to a one way star since the Kg /Duncan/ Shaq era.

Howard was also one of if not the best defensive players at that time. The way he effected the game on that end was almost enough to make him at least that star level by itself. I've never been a fan of Howard offensively but you gotta give that guy his due he was a beast. If you watched him in that last Rockets game that was Howard back in Orlando I bet the Rockets hope that Dwight shows up more often. Lol

Howard was an absolute force in Orlando, making them an Eastern Conference powerhouse year after year. He was consistently a top 3 player in the league. Can you imagine if the Magic back then had the guards that the Warriors have right now?

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Dwight in Orlando was a superstar. There is no debating it. You can dismiss it if you'd like, but that guy took the Magic to the Finals with a team that was built 100% around him. Not many guys have beat LeBron in a playoff series and he was one of them.

Something to note: Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Davis. What do all of them have in common? They all play or played great defense. They defended the rim and anchored their team's effort on that end of the floor. There have been guys like Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, DeMarcus Cousins, etc. who can score at will. The reason they aren't superstars is because offense is just half of the game of basketball.

I think Dwight had a superstar year, don't disagree that his run with Orlando was impressive. I just don't think he has sustained his play enough for me to consider him a superstar. But even if you include him there has been a talent gap up front until recently. I wouldnt say that AL and brooks could score at will myself, Shaq could score at will. Neither AL or Brooks ever even sniffed the scoring title. Kevin Love may be the closest to a one way star since the Kg /Duncan/ Shaq era.

I think that both Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson have been offensively same class than for example Duncan and Garnett were in their prime. Their per 36 minutes (or per 100 possessions scoring averages) and efficiency have been around same level than what Duncan and Garnett had.

Duncan 19.2-22.6 PTS/per 36 minutes .523-.579 TS%
Garnett 19.4-22.1 PTS/per 36 minutes .531-.589 TS%
Jefferson 18.7-22.7 PTS/per 36 minutes .500-.535 TS%
B. Lopez 20.8-23.0 PTS/per 36 minutes .549-.569 TS% (numbers taken only from seasons when he was able to play at least 70 games)

Even though Al has not been usually as efficient offensive player than Duncan and Garnett were, his offensive numbers match still quite nicely with theirs. Brook's numbers look even better than what Garnett and Duncan had. Still no one thinks that they would be even remotely same level than Duncan or Garnett and I think major difference is that their defense is much worse. They have also not been able to play as many minutes per game than Duncan and Garnett played, which makes their per game offensive averages clearly worse compared these real stars.

Mikkeman wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Dwight in Orlando was a superstar. There is no debating it. You can dismiss it if you'd like, but that guy took the Magic to the Finals with a team that was built 100% around him. Not many guys have beat LeBron in a playoff series and he was one of them.

Something to note: Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Davis. What do all of them have in common? They all play or played great defense. They defended the rim and anchored their team's effort on that end of the floor. There have been guys like Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, DeMarcus Cousins, etc. who can score at will. The reason they aren't superstars is because offense is just half of the game of basketball.

I think Dwight had a superstar year, don't disagree that his run with Orlando was impressive. I just don't think he has sustained his play enough for me to consider him a superstar. But even if you include him there has been a talent gap up front until recently. I wouldnt say that AL and brooks could score at will myself, Shaq could score at will. Neither AL or Brooks ever even sniffed the scoring title. Kevin Love may be the closest to a one way star since the Kg /Duncan/ Shaq era.

I think that both Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson have been offensively same class than for example Duncan and Garnett were in their prime. Their per 36 minutes (or per 100 possessions scoring averages) and efficiency have been around same level than what Duncan and Garnett had.

Duncan 19.2-22.6 PTS/per 36 minutes .523-.579 TS%
Garnett 19.4-22.1 PTS/per 36 minutes .531-.589 TS%
Jefferson 18.7-22.7 PTS/per 36 minutes .500-.535 TS%
B. Lopez 20.8-23.0 PTS/per 36 minutes .549-.569 TS% (numbers taken only from seasons when he was able to play at least 70 games)

Even though Al has not been usually as efficient offensive player than Duncan and Garnett were, his offensive numbers match still quite nicely with theirs. Brook's numbers look even better than what Garnett and Duncan had. Still no one thinks that they would be even remotely same level than Duncan or Garnett and I think major difference is that their defense is much worse. They have also not been able to play as many minutes per game than Duncan and Garnett played, which makes their per game offensive averages clearly worse compared these real stars.

In addition to defense, Duncan and Garnett were much more versatile offensively. It was so startling to go from Garnett passing out of the post to Jefferson. Garnett is one of the best passing big men in NBA history. (Duncan is very good at it, too.)

Jefferson's passes out of the post rarely went anywhere. Most of the time, they were soft passes back out to the wing or PG to reset with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock. Jefferson was/is really a lousy passer. I don't know much about Lopez's passing. But I just checked and see he averaged 0.7 assists per game this season. Yikes. I have to assume it's not a strength of his game either.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Dwight in Orlando was a superstar. There is no debating it. You can dismiss it if you'd like, but that guy took the Magic to the Finals with a team that was built 100% around him. Not many guys have beat LeBron in a playoff series and he was one of them.

Something to note: Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Davis. What do all of them have in common? They all play or played great defense. They defended the rim and anchored their team's effort on that end of the floor. There have been guys like Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, DeMarcus Cousins, etc. who can score at will. The reason they aren't superstars is because offense is just half of the game of basketball.

I think Dwight had a superstar year, don't disagree that his run with Orlando was impressive. I just don't think he has sustained his play enough for me to consider him a superstar. But even if you include him there has been a talent gap up front until recently. I wouldnt say that AL and brooks could score at will myself, Shaq could score at will. Neither AL or Brooks ever even sniffed the scoring title. Kevin Love may be the closest to a one way star since the Kg /Duncan/ Shaq era.

I think that both Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson have been offensively same class than for example Duncan and Garnett were in their prime. Their per 36 minutes (or per 100 possessions scoring averages) and efficiency have been around same level than what Duncan and Garnett had.

Duncan 19.2-22.6 PTS/per 36 minutes .523-.579 TS%
Garnett 19.4-22.1 PTS/per 36 minutes .531-.589 TS%
Jefferson 18.7-22.7 PTS/per 36 minutes .500-.535 TS%
B. Lopez 20.8-23.0 PTS/per 36 minutes .549-.569 TS% (numbers taken only from seasons when he was able to play at least 70 games)

Even though Al has not been usually as efficient offensive player than Duncan and Garnett were, his offensive numbers match still quite nicely with theirs. Brook's numbers look even better than what Garnett and Duncan had. Still no one thinks that they would be even remotely same level than Duncan or Garnett and I think major difference is that their defense is much worse. They have also not been able to play as many minutes per game than Duncan and Garnett played, which makes their per game offensive averages clearly worse compared these real stars.

In addition to defense, Duncan and Garnett were much more versatile offensively. It was so startling to go from Garnett passing out of the post to Jefferson. Garnett is one of the best passing big men in NBA history. (Duncan is very good at it, too.)

Jefferson's passes out of the post rarely went anywhere. Most of the time, they were soft passes back out to the wing or PG to reset with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock. Jefferson was/is really a lousy passer. I don't know much about Lopez's passing. But I just checked and see he averaged 0.7 assists per game this season. Yikes. I have to assume it's not a strength of his game either.

Lopez sometimes pathetic rebounding numbers for a C his size don't help his case as a player either.

Mikkeman wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Dwight in Orlando was a superstar. There is no debating it. You can dismiss it if you'd like, but that guy took the Magic to the Finals with a team that was built 100% around him. Not many guys have beat LeBron in a playoff series and he was one of them.

Something to note: Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Davis. What do all of them have in common? They all play or played great defense. They defended the rim and anchored their team's effort on that end of the floor. There have been guys like Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, DeMarcus Cousins, etc. who can score at will. The reason they aren't superstars is because offense is just half of the game of basketball.

I think Dwight had a superstar year, don't disagree that his run with Orlando was impressive. I just don't think he has sustained his play enough for me to consider him a superstar. But even if you include him there has been a talent gap up front until recently. I wouldnt say that AL and brooks could score at will myself, Shaq could score at will. Neither AL or Brooks ever even sniffed the scoring title. Kevin Love may be the closest to a one way star since the Kg /Duncan/ Shaq era.

I think that both Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson have been offensively same class than for example Duncan and Garnett were in their prime. Their per 36 minutes (or per 100 possessions scoring averages) and efficiency have been around same level than what Duncan and Garnett had.

Duncan 19.2-22.6 PTS/per 36 minutes .523-.579 TS%
Garnett 19.4-22.1 PTS/per 36 minutes .531-.589 TS%
Jefferson 18.7-22.7 PTS/per 36 minutes .500-.535 TS%
B. Lopez 20.8-23.0 PTS/per 36 minutes .549-.569 TS% (numbers taken only from seasons when he was able to play at least 70 games)

Even though Al has not been usually as efficient offensive player than Duncan and Garnett were, his offensive numbers match still quite nicely with theirs. Brook's numbers look even better than what Garnett and Duncan had. Still no one thinks that they would be even remotely same level than Duncan or Garnett and I think major difference is that their defense is much worse. They have also not been able to play as many minutes per game than Duncan and Garnett played, which makes their per game offensive averages clearly worse compared these real stars.

I wasn't trying to imply that Al and Brooks weren't good offensive players or even at the level of Duncan or Garnett on offense. I was making the point that they weren't superstar offensive bigs who could score at will, like Shaq. Al and Brooks are borderline all-stars because of their offense. As you correctly point out, Garnett and Duncan were superstars because of being able to play both sides of the floor. Shaq not as much, but clearly still a superstar in his own right because of his ability to dominate offensively. The question about Okafor for me is can he take his offense to an even higher level than Brooks or Al and can he become a better defender and rebounder. I say yes on all counts, I think he is too natural of a ball player and so much more fluid and talented that Brooks or Al.

Gotcha.

I agree that I think Okafor is better than those guys.

Um...Insane. This pick blows my mind. I guess that explains some of the challenge with FTs.

thedoper wrote:

Um...Insane. This pick blows my mind. I guess that explains some of the challenge with FTs.

Phil would always say that MJ had such an advantage because of his huge hands. Those hands Okafor has are insane.