PorkChop wrote:Ben Simmons confidence is in shambles. How much do you give up for a guy that might be a reclamation project. Is this the organization capable of turning things around for him? Do we have players that can build him up?
I look at Simmons as lacking confidence offensively and the best situation for him would be to not be a player to rely on the offensive side of the ball with the game on the line. I think that fits really well on the Wolves roster that is so offensively oriented right now. I think Philly was looking to him to be a player that he isnt, and I really like the fit with our talent. Whoever gets Simmons is clearly getting a bargain at this point, but if they have similar expectations to Philly it would be a reclamation. If a team wanted him to come in and play great D and make smart plays on the offensive end I think he will flourish.
PorkChop wrote:Ben Simmons confidence is in shambles. How much do you give up for a guy that might be a reclamation project. Is this the organization capable of turning things around for him? Do we have players that can build him up?
I look at Simmons as lacking confidence offensively and the best situation for him would be to not be a player to rely on the offensive side of the ball with the game on the line. I think that fits really well on the Wolves roster that is so offensively oriented right now. I think Philly was looking to him to be a player that he isnt, and I really like the fit with our talent. Whoever gets Simmons is clearly getting a bargain at this point, but if they have similar expectations to Philly it would be a reclamation. If a team wanted him to come in and play great D and make smart plays on the offensive end I think he will flourish.
I couldn't agree more. Pork, Simmons had a odd final game in the playoffs to be sure, but to call the current consensus best defensive player in the league a reclamation project is inaccurate. And check out his offensive stats last year...they're actually quite good. And Doper's point is well taken. Simmons has always been counted on for his scoring in Philly as well as his defense. In Minnesota, he will be expected to be a 4th option at best and maybe even 5th. That is an entirely better role for a guy who will never be a good shooter from the outside. I agree he would thrive on offense next to KAT, Ant and whoever is left after the trade.
Last night I watched game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between Miami and Philly (with Butler). Watching that game was a reminder that Simmons flaws and "confidence" issues didn't just appear for the first time in last season's playoffs.
Simmons played PG in that game, but in the 4th quarter, it was Jimmy Butler who played the point and ran the half-court offense, with some help in that role from Embiid. Meanwhile, Simmons played off the ball. Watching him play off the ball in that game (and the playoff games I've re-watched from this past season's playoffs) is troublesome. He is a complete non-factor off the ball. He stands and drifts lazily. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut and, of course, he doesn't shoot. He's a good rebounder, but not a great one, and he rarely boxed out or crashed the offensive boards in this game or the others I re-watched. Honestly, he just disappeared in the 4th quarter. That was two years ago and no different from what we just saw from him in this year's playoffs.
Another thing I noticed in this game was that he repeatedly passed out on his drives to the basket rather than attempting to finish and score or draw a foul -- very different from Giannis who would have probably scored inside on most of those drives. Of course, I can understand why Simmons might be reluctant to rely on drawing fouls given his poor free-throw shooting. There's a reason he lacks confidence. It's hard to have confidence in your shot when your shot is bad.
Finally, I've noticed that Simmons often defends in the paint with his hands at his sides. He did that numerous times in this game, but was bailed out a few times by Embiid's shot-blocking. KAT wouldn't be quite the backstop Embiid has been for Simmons. And that reminds me that at least some of Simmons' defensive prowess might be attributable to playing with a defensive monster like Embiid.
Yes, Simmons is a terrific player. And I wouldn't label him a reclamation project. But he has serious flaws that should give any team pause when considering how much they're willing to give up to get him. And the notion of him playing a largely off-the-ball Draymond Green role is at least something to question. Draymond Green is a high-motor, in your face, tough, nasty player on both sides of the ball. While he's not a particularly good shooter, he's at least a threat from behind the arc and is willing to take those shots. Moreover, Green is a pretty good free-throw shooter.
lipoli390 wrote:Last night I watched game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between Miami and Philly (with Butler). Watching that game was a reminder that Simmons flaws and "confidence" issues didn't just appear for the first time in last season's playoffs.
Simmons played PG in that game, but in the 4th quarter, it was Jimmy Butler who played the point and ran the half-court offense, with some help in that role from Embiid. Meanwhile, Simmons played off the ball. Watching him play off the ball in that game (and the playoff games I've re-watched from this past season's playoffs) is troublesome. He is a complete non-factor off the ball. He stands and drifts lazily. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut and, of course, he doesn't shoot. He's a good rebounder, but not a great one, and he rarely boxed out or crashed the offensive boards in this game or the others I re-watched. Honestly, he just disappeared in the 4th quarter. That was two years ago and no different from what we just saw from him in this year's playoffs.
Another thing I noticed in this game was that he repeatedly passed out on his drives to the basket rather than attempting to finish and score or draw a foul -- very different from Giannis who would have probably scored inside on most of those drives. Of course, I can understand why Simmons might be reluctant to rely on drawing fouls given his poor free-throw shooting. There's a reason he lacks confidence. It's hard to have confidence in your shot when your shot is bad.
Finally, I've noticed that Simmons often defends in the paint with his hands at his sides. He did that numerous times in this game, but was bailed out a few times by Embiid's shot-blocking. KAT wouldn't be quite the backstop Embiid has been for Simmons. And that reminds me that at least some of Simmons' defensive prowess might be attributable to playing with a defensive monster like Embiid.
Yes, Simmons is a terrific player. And I wouldn't label him a reclamation project. But he has serious flaws that should give any team pause when considering how much they're willing to give up to get him. And the notion of him playing a largely off-the-ball Draymond Green role is at least something to question. Draymond Green is a high-motor, in your face, tough, nasty player on both sides of the ball. While he's not a particularly good shooter, he's at least a threat from behind the arc and is willing to take those shots. Moreover, Green is a pretty good free-throw shooter.
I have watched zero minutes of Ben Simmons in the playoffs, so may be Philly does this already, but I would think in crunch time his best use would be as a screener vs. drifting off into a corner somewhere. In fact, that may work better with us since we have a ball handling scorer like Ant that Philly just doesn't have. Everyone else can space out beyond the arc, but go to a two-man screen and roll game with Ant and Simmons.
lipoli390 wrote:Last night I watched game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between Miami and Philly (with Butler). Watching that game was a reminder that Simmons flaws and "confidence" issues didn't just appear for the first time in last season's playoffs.
Simmons played PG in that game, but in the 4th quarter, it was Jimmy Butler who played the point and ran the half-court offense, with some help in that role from Embiid. Meanwhile, Simmons played off the ball. Watching him play off the ball in that game (and the playoff games I've re-watched from this past season's playoffs) is troublesome. He is a complete non-factor off the ball. He stands and drifts lazily. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut and, of course, he doesn't shoot. He's a good rebounder, but not a great one, and he rarely boxed out or crashed the offensive boards in this game or the others I re-watched. Honestly, he just disappeared in the 4th quarter. That was two years ago and no different from what we just saw from him in this year's playoffs.
Another thing I noticed in this game was that he repeatedly passed out on his drives to the basket rather than attempting to finish and score or draw a foul -- very different from Giannis who would have probably scored inside on most of those drives. Of course, I can understand why Simmons might be reluctant to rely on drawing fouls given his poor free-throw shooting. There's a reason he lacks confidence. It's hard to have confidence in your shot when your shot is bad.
Finally, I've noticed that Simmons often defends in the paint with his hands at his sides. He did that numerous times in this game, but was bailed out a few times by Embiid's shot-blocking. KAT wouldn't be quite the backstop Embiid has been for Simmons. And that reminds me that at least some of Simmons' defensive prowess might be attributable to playing with a defensive monster like Embiid.
Yes, Simmons is a terrific player. And I wouldn't label him a reclamation project. But he has serious flaws that should give any team pause when considering how much they're willing to give up to get him. And the notion of him playing a largely off-the-ball Draymond Green role is at least something to question. Draymond Green is a high-motor, in your face, tough, nasty player on both sides of the ball. While he's not a particularly good shooter, he's at least a threat from behind the arc and is willing to take those shots. Moreover, Green is a pretty good free-throw shooter.
I have watched zero minutes of Ben Simmons in the playoffs, so may be Philly does this already, but I would think in crunch time his best use would be as a screener vs. drifting off into a corner somewhere. In fact, that may work better with us since we have a ball handling scorer like Ant that Philly just doesn't have. Everyone else can space out beyond the arc, but go to a two-man screen and roll game with Ant and Simmons.
Philly did some of that. But from what I've seen, Simmons isn't particularly good at setting screens. He doesn't like physical play and just isn't very tough. Another thing that has bothered me is his body language. He just seems passive, although I'll concede that body language can be deceiving and his season stats have been impressive over the years.
lipoli390 wrote:Last night I watched game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between Miami and Philly (with Butler). Watching that game was a reminder that Simmons flaws and "confidence" issues didn't just appear for the first time in last season's playoffs.
Simmons played PG in that game, but in the 4th quarter, it was Jimmy Butler who played the point and ran the half-court offense, with some help in that role from Embiid. Meanwhile, Simmons played off the ball. Watching him play off the ball in that game (and the playoff games I've re-watched from this past season's playoffs) is troublesome. He is a complete non-factor off the ball. He stands and drifts lazily. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut and, of course, he doesn't shoot. He's a good rebounder, but not a great one, and he rarely boxed out or crashed the offensive boards in this game or the others I re-watched. Honestly, he just disappeared in the 4th quarter. That was two years ago and no different from what we just saw from him in this year's playoffs.
Another thing I noticed in this game was that he repeatedly passed out on his drives to the basket rather than attempting to finish and score or draw a foul -- very different from Giannis who would have probably scored inside on most of those drives. Of course, I can understand why Simmons might be reluctant to rely on drawing fouls given his poor free-throw shooting. There's a reason he lacks confidence. It's hard to have confidence in your shot when your shot is bad.
Finally, I've noticed that Simmons often defends in the paint with his hands at his sides. He did that numerous times in this game, but was bailed out a few times by Embiid's shot-blocking. KAT wouldn't be quite the backstop Embiid has been for Simmons. And that reminds me that at least some of Simmons' defensive prowess might be attributable to playing with a defensive monster like Embiid.
Yes, Simmons is a terrific player. And I wouldn't label him a reclamation project. But he has serious flaws that should give any team pause when considering how much they're willing to give up to get him. And the notion of him playing a largely off-the-ball Draymond Green role is at least something to question. Draymond Green is a high-motor, in your face, tough, nasty player on both sides of the ball. While he's not a particularly good shooter, he's at least a threat from behind the arc and is willing to take those shots. Moreover, Green is a pretty good free-throw shooter.
I have watched zero minutes of Ben Simmons in the playoffs, so may be Philly does this already, but I would think in crunch time his best use would be as a screener vs. drifting off into a corner somewhere. In fact, that may work better with us since we have a ball handling scorer like Ant that Philly just doesn't have. Everyone else can space out beyond the arc, but go to a two-man screen and roll game with Ant and Simmons.
I'd want to use Simmons like the Bucks used Giannis especially in the Finals. Basically have him play as a big although one that handled the ball but as soon as he passed it off he was setting screens getting post position going to the rim etc. I would not be shocked if Simmons was better at setting screen than Towns.
Draymond Green is a very unique player and yes he is a better shooter. Simmons is an elite ball handler able to take players off the dribble in isolation. He is a true PG at 6'10" that can probe around and make plays for others.
I'll also say that not everyone does well with Jimmy Butler running the entire offense. We saw that here. Sometimes I think Butler is part of that problem but I think it's more about the skill set of players and also coaching/system. Butler was basically made for that Miami system they have been playing for years since the big 3 left. Are there some concerns about Simmons? Yes but I also think he is a guy that could flourish if placed into the right situation with teammates that complimented his skills.
lipoli390 wrote:Last night I watched game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between Miami and Philly (with Butler). Watching that game was a reminder that Simmons flaws and "confidence" issues didn't just appear for the first time in last season's playoffs.
Simmons played PG in that game, but in the 4th quarter, it was Jimmy Butler who played the point and ran the half-court offense, with some help in that role from Embiid. Meanwhile, Simmons played off the ball. Watching him play off the ball in that game (and the playoff games I've re-watched from this past season's playoffs) is troublesome. He is a complete non-factor off the ball. He stands and drifts lazily. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut and, of course, he doesn't shoot. He's a good rebounder, but not a great one, and he rarely boxed out or crashed the offensive boards in this game or the others I re-watched. Honestly, he just disappeared in the 4th quarter. That was two years ago and no different from what we just saw from him in this year's playoffs.
Another thing I noticed in this game was that he repeatedly passed out on his drives to the basket rather than attempting to finish and score or draw a foul -- very different from Giannis who would have probably scored inside on most of those drives. Of course, I can understand why Simmons might be reluctant to rely on drawing fouls given his poor free-throw shooting. There's a reason he lacks confidence. It's hard to have confidence in your shot when your shot is bad.
Finally, I've noticed that Simmons often defends in the paint with his hands at his sides. He did that numerous times in this game, but was bailed out a few times by Embiid's shot-blocking. KAT wouldn't be quite the backstop Embiid has been for Simmons. And that reminds me that at least some of Simmons' defensive prowess might be attributable to playing with a defensive monster like Embiid.
Yes, Simmons is a terrific player. And I wouldn't label him a reclamation project. But he has serious flaws that should give any team pause when considering how much they're willing to give up to get him. And the notion of him playing a largely off-the-ball Draymond Green role is at least something to question. Draymond Green is a high-motor, in your face, tough, nasty player on both sides of the ball. While he's not a particularly good shooter, he's at least a threat from behind the arc and is willing to take those shots. Moreover, Green is a pretty good free-throw shooter.
I have watched zero minutes of Ben Simmons in the playoffs, so may be Philly does this already, but I would think in crunch time his best use would be as a screener vs. drifting off into a corner somewhere. In fact, that may work better with us since we have a ball handling scorer like Ant that Philly just doesn't have. Everyone else can space out beyond the arc, but go to a two-man screen and roll game with Ant and Simmons.
You beat me to it, Q. I'd argue that if Ben Simmons isn't handling the rock himself, he needs to primarily be used as a screener regardless of regular season or post-season. I think that's where he'll be incredibly difficult to stop in Minnesota. As the roll man, he'll do what he's best at which is putting immediate pressure on the rim or dishing to wide open shooters and cutters. He hasn't really played with a perimeter player that can handle in the pick-and-roll. Jimmy Butler prefers to iso and the Sixers just haven't had great guard play since Simmons was drafted. Aside from that, I think he'd be great roaming the dunker spot on this team with his finishing ability and the various passers on the floor.
Lip, I think you're talking about the Philly series vs Toronto, not Miami...right? And you're right...Simmons was ineffective in that series. I thought the entire Butler to Simmons experiment was ill-fated. Ben needs to have the ball in his hands, and with an alpha guy like Butler in charge, he hardly touched the ball in that series. Here's what an aberration that series was...aside from the Raptors series, Ben has averaged 8.2 assists per game in his playoff history. But with Alpha Jimmy running the show in that series, Ben was reduced to only 4.9 APG.
But I wouldn't use that series as an indication of how Ben would look with the Wolves. Yes, he would be the PF and Dlo would be the PG...and Dlo can be very clever in getting off his own shot when he is handling the ball. But Russell is not even close to being the alpha dog that Butler is, and he has shown that he is very comfortable...sometimes even more so...playing off the ball. I agree with Cam that Simmons would blend with the current Wolves roster perfectly.
Thanks, FNG. Yes, I was referring to the Toronto series. I don't think it was Butler's alpha personality that took the ball out of DLO's hands. I think it was the coach who did that because Simmons becomes a liability late in tight games with his poor perimeter shooting, poor free-throw shooting and related reluctance to shoot. Another good head coach, Doc Rivers, did the same thing in this year's playoffs.
But my main concern is that playing him with DLO, Edwards and KAT necessarily puts Simmons off the ball in a Draymond Green type role. From what I've seen, and based on his skills, I not sure that's a good role for him or for the team he's on. Cam had me persuaded otherwise until I watched and Toronto game and reflected some more.
For Simmons to be more than a one-way player, I think he needs to be the lead guard where he can use his ball-handling, passing and dribble-drive game. That role can be divided two ways between DLO and Edwards, but not three ways with Simmons. Meanwhile, the offense has to run quite a bit through KAT to take full advantage of his skill set. So I don't see Simmons as a good offensive fit for the Wolves.
I've always thought that the best scenario for the Wolves would be replacing DLO with Simmons to better balance offense and defense. But I wouldn't do that deal if we had to also give up Beasley or even McDaniels. Giving up Beasley along with DLO would take too much away from our offense. Trading McDaniels would give up (1) some of what we'd be getting defensively from Simmons, (2) 3-point shooting, (3) high upside. I'd give up DLO, Layman or Okogie and a couple 2nd-round picks for Simmons. I might also include a lottery-protected 1st but that's it. That probably means I'm not going to get Simmons and I'm OK with that.
