60WinTim wrote:Just finished catching up on this thread. Good stuff.
I was a little surprised how hurt LST was at Sam being let go. But I have a hard time viewing it as "a firing". He was only ever the "interim" head coach for the season. Never was there a commitment he could be the head coach beyond this season. If LST wants to be put off with "Sam not being considered for the full time job", then so be it.
As for the next head coach, I am hard pressed to believe it would be anyone other than Thibs. His forte is defense. This team's achilles heal was defense. He has a winning track record. And the piece that cinches it is KG.
I will be stunned if the next head coach is not Thibs. And like Cam, I think he is a perfect fit for this team.
I don't think even Cam believes Thibodeau is a perfect fit. Can he do a good job here? Yes, most likely in the short term. But he's far from perfect.
LST, I fall in line behind Ollie too. I keep waiting for his name to emerge as a candidate but so far I've heard nothing. I'd at least like to know if there is any mutual interest.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'd say perfect simply because I wish his offense was more free-flowing than it is, but I'm not really worried about that because of the offensive talent we have. He's perfect for our defense, though. We have so much potential there and I do think he's the best possible guy in that regard. He'll get the most out of them.
Also, if Thibs is good/great in the short term, which I'm positive he will be, then I don't know why he can't or won't be the long-term guy either. I know you're worrisome about him draining the players mentally and physically, but perhaps Thibs will take the criticism he's received and alter his ways a little bit. I think he'll be here for a good while if he's hired.
Lets remind ourselves here there is no perfect candidate. We all know the downsides to every possible option.
At this point it's pretty easy to come up with Thibs JVG and Brooks as top guys and go from there.
I love the idea of getting a young guy to grow with the team but the reality is if you can find a damn good coach for the next 5 years that's a win. The best team in the league win a championship with a rookie HC that didn't even coach the team (at least the full typical duties of a head coach) for a bunch of games the following year where his team won the most games of any team in history.
With Thibs there is legit concerns about the guy but I tend the issues between him and the Bulls management are somewhere in the middle. How many very good coaches have been fired or moved on over the years because they didn't agree/get along with whoever was running the team? With Thins there was probably a little more than that. It seems maybe it wasn't all Thibs though either. Things aren't exactly happy in Chicago and I'm sure having a disappointing season was part of it and some key vets weren't available to play much but it seems like there is a possible issue with a couple of players that may be a problem with any coach.
JVG said in the Vertical podcast that after his first season working for Pat Riley he was called in for a job evaluation which JVG said he had never received as a coach and he was appreciative of it. He also said that after it was over Riley asked him if he was ever consider being an NBA HC. JVG said he had never really considered it he had just finished his first season as an NBA assistant he was just hoping to keep his current job. He told Pat "I don't know if I would be qualified." Pat replied (along with more) that if you are competent and players know you can give them an advantage to help you win NBA players will allow you to coach them. It seems obvious but I thought it was interesting how simply he broke it done for a young JVG.
60WinTim wrote:Just finished catching up on this thread. Good stuff.
I was a little surprised how hurt LST was at Sam being let go. But I have a hard time viewing it as "a firing". He was only ever the "interim" head coach for the season. Never was there a commitment he could be the head coach beyond this season. If LST wants to be put off with "Sam not being considered for the full time job", then so be it.
As for the next head coach, I am hard pressed to believe it would be anyone other than Thibs. His forte is defense. This team's achilles heal was defense. He has a winning track record. And the piece that cinches it is KG.
I will be stunned if the next head coach is not Thibs. And like Cam, I think he is a perfect fit for this team.
I don't think even Cam believes Thibodeau is a perfect fit. Can he do a good job here? Yes, most likely in the short term. But he's far from perfect.
LST, I fall in line behind Ollie too. I keep waiting for his name to emerge as a candidate but so far I've heard nothing. I'd at least like to know if there is any mutual interest.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'd say perfect simply because I wish his offense was more free-flowing than it is, but I'm not really worried about that because of the offensive talent we have. He's perfect for our defense, though. We have so much potential there and I do think he's the best possible guy in that regard. He'll get the most out of them.
Also, if Thibs is good/great in the short term, which I'm positive he will be, then I don't know why he can't or won't be the long-term guy either. I know you're worrisome about him draining the players mentally and physically, but perhaps Thibs will take the criticism he's received and alter his ways a little bit. I think he'll be here for a good while if he's hired.
I think what can separate any head coach from just having a good run or whatever and something more special is the assistant coaches. I'd say that for every candidate even these top guys. Thibs may need one guy he really respects that tells him to relax and have a bit of fun here and there. JVG said on the Veryical podcast he would likely need an assistant that would be an offensive guy and he went on to praise his assistants he had in Houston like crazy. Brooks may need a guy that helps him be a tactician or keep him from being out coached in big games.
The thing I like about Thibs is he took a year off and while he stayed around the game he did actually chill out some.
I think the Wolves would win a lot more games next year with Thibs coaching them...his defensive success and tendency to play his starters more than the NBA norm would just about guarantee this (provided our key players stayed healthy). I think it's important to note that Thibs' first boss in the NBA was Bill Musselman, who was better at squeezing more regular season wins than expected than any coach I can think of.
But while a lot more wins is what we all want next season, is that good for this club long term? Sam Mitchell was widely criticized for giving his stars too few minutes, but it was clear that our key players were very healthy and had a lot more left in the tank at the end of the season than their opponents. Thibs is more from the Musselman school...every game is important, and you can never hold back. That approach has led to very good regular season win/loss records, but a sub-500 playoff record...and I don't see Thibs flexible enough to change his philosophy. I prefer a coach who understands the concept of "the season", like Popovich...a guy that understands how healthy and rested you are in May/June is ultimately more important than winning that game in January by playing your starters 42 minutes. I think most of us here have high hopes for this group of high-ceiling young studs, and keeping them healthy and happy will be critical to deep playoff runs in 3-4 years.
I think Thibs is a driven, talented coach, but I was actually surprised he lasted as long as he did in Chicago. I remember reading some quotes from Noah about three years ago, where he said he was tired and beaten up and that Thibs didn't seem to understand the concept of rest. It's unusual for a coach to survive when a team leader like Noah publicly challenges his coach's philosophy, so I assumed Thibs had lost the team...but he survived to coach a few more years. Apparently several negative player exit interviews in May 2015 convinced Bulls management that Thibs needed to go. Glen knows this, and also knows that he has a very happy, tight group of young players. I would be very surprised if he risked affecting the terrific chemistry this team has right now by bringing in a guy who generally has controversy surrounding him.
First, Pop is able to rest his starters like he does because he has insane depth. Much more difficult to do when you're short-handed every night and thin in general. Thibs played those guys the minutes he did mainly out of necessity. Would you rather him play the starters more and have a 4-seed or play the starters on 30-minute caps and miss the playoffs? That's essentially what the options were. It's also fair to note that Butler is still among the top of the list when it comes to MPG and he's not being coached by Thibs anymore. Maybe he, just like Deng, was and is capable of playing those big minutes. Harden does it yearly, Wiggins did it last year. Not every athlete is made the same.
Also, Noah and Thibs had a very good and unique relationship. Could even compare it to the one KG had with Flip, though not as strong. Noah saying that they practiced too much or whatever isn't an indictment of Thibs losing the team. It's an outspoken player saying what was on his mind. Noah's also the kind of guy that hates being pulled out of games. I can attest to this because I watched him do it at Florida with Billy D and he was the same way in Chicago.
Edit: Might we also conclude that his playoff record is a wee bit skewed based on a former MVP caliber player, and $20-something million in cap space, being unavailable? That's entering the ring with one arm tied behind your back. Unless you're going to tell me that Thibs is why Rose tore his ACL, you have to take that into account.
I think we need to be mindful of how the presence of Korn Ferry impacts this process. Their job is to provide the ultimate decision-maker (Glen) with a slate of candidates along with their strengths and weaknesses. My impression is that they operate a lot like real estate agents representing buyers...that is, they often hold back on their preferred choice until after their client has had a chance to see some candidates (or houses) that they don't think is the right fit. That way their preferred candidate eventually looks better by comparison. I don't see it as good news for Thibs and JVG that they were the first names mentioned...that tells me that they are KF's cannon fodder that they show to Glen before they present him with a candidate that they think will really knock Glen's socks off.
Let's face it...if Glen wanted Thibs, he didn't need to pay half a million dollars to KF to get him. Through his connections, he knows Thibs is available and wants the job. He hired KF both to provide himself some cover, but also to think outside the box...to present and recommend some candidates to Glen that are not in his circle of contacts. That's why I think we will soon be hearing about several NBA assistants and college coaches that are being interviewed, and I think that is a much better plan that just jumping on the Thibs bus. Glen may ultimately decide that Thibs is the best choice, and if so, I will be on board. But this is one of the most important decisions that this franchise has ever made, and I will be disappointed if KF and the Wolves don't consider at least 20-30 candidates before they make their final decision. As much as I would prefer having a PBO and a new coach on board for the draft, that's not a good enough reason to rush this process. Take your time, and hopefully end up with a couple guys who will be successful and still be around when our young core reaches its peak in 5-8 years.
longstrangetrip wrote:I think we need to be mindful of how the presence of Korn Ferry impacts this process. Their job is to provide the ultimate decision-maker (Glen) with a slate of candidates along with their strengths and weaknesses. My impression is that they operate a lot like real estate agents representing buyers...that is, they often hold back on their preferred choice until after their client has had a chance to see some candidates (or houses) that they don't think is the right fit. That way their preferred candidate eventually looks better by comparison. I don't see it as good news for Thibs and JVG that they were the first names mentioned...that tells me that they are KF's cannon fodder that they show to Glen before they present him with a candidate that they think will really knock Glen's socks off.
Let's face it...if Glen wanted Thibs, he didn't need to pay half a million dollars to KF to get him. Through his connections, he knows Thibs is available and wants the job. He hired KF both to provide himself some cover, but also to think outside the box...to present and recommend some candidates to Glen that are not in his circle of contacts. That's why I think we will soon be hearing about several NBA assistants and college coaches that are being interviewed, and I think that is a much better plan that just jumping on the Thibs bus. Glen may ultimately decide that Thibs is the best choice, and if so, I will be on board. But this is one of the most important decisions that this franchise has ever made, and I will be disappointed if KF and the Wolves don't consider at least 20-30 candidates before they make their final decision. As much as I would prefer having a PBO and a new coach on board for the draft, that's not a good enough reason to rush this process. Take your time, and hopefully end up with a couple guys who will be successful and still be around when our young core reaches its peak in 5-8 years.
I have to disagree, Glen is old as dirt and has been getting impatient and wants success now, that speaks to a high profile coach like JVG and THibs, there are also multiple reports that Glen is enamored with the structure in Detroit with Stan Van Gundy which also speaks to JVG and THibs. I think it's a done deal that one of those two are our coach
Thibs wearing out players was coming from other sources beside the Bulls front office, before Paxson made a "leak". When this argument happened before on this board I posted a podcast from Zach Lowe saying the same issue that players off the record were getting warn down by Thibs. That was a month before Paxson fired Thibs. I think the real defense of Thibs is that all situations can get messy when you under-perform. Hopefully he did learn from that experience and will adjust.
Another point is I think you have too look at both candidates abilities as Pobo too, since they both want that as well and will likely demand it. I feel much more confident of JVG in the dual role than Thibs.
The thing I do not like about a guy with no NBA head coaching experience is it would put us in a position of having both players and a head coach learning the ropes of playing/coaching in the NBA. Thibs already got the NBA coaching experience, has been successful (albeit no championship, yet!), and has a strength that shores up the Wolves biggest weakness: defense.
Glen has failed so much at higher the right people that bring in KF is a savvy move, even if the end result is hiring Thibs. Plus hiring the right POBO may be the true value that KF brings to the table.
60WinTim wrote:The thing I do not like about a guy with no NBA head coaching experience is it would put us in a position of having both players and a head coach learning the ropes of playing/coaching in the NBA. Thibs already got the NBA coaching experience, has been successful (albeit no championship, yet!), and has a strength that shores up the Wolves biggest weakness: defense.
