Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:"motor", "fire" "heart"....what sort of metrics or devices are we using to measure these things? Is Wiggins heart two sizes too small like the Grinch? I have to believe the medical staff would have caught that in the pre-draft physical.

Hey, anything is possible. Perhaps with the new facility Flip installed, they can find out these things!

But actually, no miracle of modern medicine is needed. The things people are questioning are easily observed by how he plays. How hard does he run? How many charges does he take? How low of a stance does he get into defensively? Does he get back quickly off missed shots? Does he dive for loose balls? Does he win 50/50 balls?.

Interesting. I would bet that scouts, GMs and Coaches look at that stuff too. Would it be possible they have better eyes/evaluation skills than some on here? Because Wiggins was the #1 overall pick in the draft and pretty much a consensus #1 at that. If any of the things you listed were big concerns....wouldn't that have affected his draft status?

Also...guys like Corey Brewer get praised for going "all out" or "lunch pail" guys. But isn't there an advantage to playing under control in basketball? Because watching Brewer play....it seemed like for every great, hustle play - he would make a corresponding poor play by being out of control.

Finally, would you agree that being bench player/low minute guy - it would be easier to go 100 mph during your 10 minutes/game. But when you are one of the few threats on the team and need to log 35ish a game, then isn't it better to avoid stupid fouls and stay on the floor? Is that playing without fire? Or is that playing smart and doing what the team needs by avoiding foul trouble by being too aggressive?

First off, you conveniently left off the part where I clearly stated I didn't expect him to be the next Dennis Rodman in terms of hustle, so I will repost what I wrote:

I don't think he has to be the next Bobby Jones (or Jerry Sloan or Dennis Rodman or Tyler Hansborough or...fill in the blank with your favorite high-energy lunchpail player), as those guys didn't need to score 20+ PPG.

What I said is I would like to see more of the "5th gear Wiggins" beyond dunks.

Second, no one here is denying the very traits that made him the #1 pick: Elite athleticism, prototype wing length, promising jumper, high character. Almost all #1 picks have some flaw or flaws and Andrew is no different. Nothing I am saying detracts from those other strengths. The question is how far can he take these gifts?

And lastly, this isn't something that I'm just pulling out of thin air for the sake of giving Wiggins a hard time. Here are excerpts from various scouting reports on him prior to being drafted:

"To reach his full potential, NBA teams will want to see Wiggins become more aggressive with the way he approaches the game." - Draft Express

"The biggest issue is whether or not Wiggins has the mental make up to maximize his immense physical gifts. While some scouts are extremely high on him, there are just as many that question his focus and passion for the game." - NBAdraft.net

"A common critique of Andrew Wiggins has been that he is plays too passively, as he is not dominating nearly as much as projected. It could be counter argued that he playing within himself and merely needs more time to develop before taking the world by storm with his basketball abilities. My impression from watching him play has been that the former is the case." - Deanondraft

I think one big-time positive is how strong Wiggins took the ball to the hoop and tried to dunk as the season wore on. We did not see that often at Kansas or the first part of the NBA season. It somewhat addresses the "passivity" concerns some have voiced. But still, someone with his immense athleticism and upside leaves one wanting for more.

I had quoted the portion of your post that I wanted to respond to for the sake of brevity. I didn't think the last paragraph added anything - but I will give you the courtesy of full quotes going forward.

Regarding your second comment - the point is to view all of his traits in totality vs. micro analyzing to pull a perceived flaw. He was drafted #1 overall and became Rookie of the Year. He's doing fine. Personally, I'd like to see his continued improvement come from making a higher percentage of shots vs. diving on the floor or taking charges. He can't help the team if he's in foul trouble or gets hurt. We need him on the court. He can score and he guards the other team's best player.

And lastly - yes, if you scroll through the hundreds of scouting reports and dive deep into the minutiae, you can pull a few lines from the "weaknesses" sections as you posted. I've never read a scouting report that said a player had zero weaknesses. They are compelled to write something there. But the point I was making is that those comments are only blurbs from an overall and complete evaluation. I think it's better to consider the intent of the full evaluation. Obviously most everyone had him as #1 overall, so it wouldn't appear that any of the comments you pulled from the full scouting reports carried too much weight in the whole scope of things.

monsterpile wrote:I'll take a fun jab at Q for wanting Wiggins to rebound better AND sprint down the court to get easy baskets. :)

Wait, that's all he has to do to be good? I thought he had to guard LeBron, force a tough shot, get the rebound, throw it full court and sprint to go get it, dunk on mozgov, steal the inbound, and drain a 3 to be good?

Damn I forgot he has to get in a lower stance when guarding LeBron too!

Carlos - I agree that in the assessment of Wiggins as a prospect, the motor/aggressiveness issue is a small part of it. But the comments from some of you seem to imply that this is just stuff myself and a couple of others are pulling out of thin air. This issue isn't new and the perception existed prior to his rookie year.

While I'd be perfectly fine with Wiggins becoming the next Paul George - a damn good two-way player before he got hurt - I'd love it even more if he came closer to being the next LeBron, Jordan, Bird, or Kobe.

With respect to the question of why Wiggins still was the #1 pick if experts had questions about his motor: I don't think anyone questioned who was the talented player in the draft...it was Wiggins. Wiggins had been on scouts' radar screen since he was a precocious young teen, and similar to LeBron James, there was an assumption that he would likely someday be an NBA #1 pick. But as questions arose about his possible lack of alpha dog personality, others began showing up as #1 in some mock drafts. In fact, until Embiid got seriously hurt, he was the consensus first pick in most mocks. And in the weeks before the draft, there was much discussion about whether Wiggins or Parker would and should go first.

A few posters have summarized my position here. Wiggins' motor, competitive drive, alpha dog personality...whatever you want to call it...is far from the Wolves' biggest problem. He showed last year that his floor is a very good NBA player. But many of us see him as having the potential to be something really special, and it's a good discussion topic when we (or other experts) note aspects of his on-court personality that could prevent him from reaching his enormously high ceiling.

Q and Long - nothing wrong with a healthy discussion or debate. The one thing I'm having a difficult time with though it that there is no real way to measure what you guys are talking about. How does Wiggins motor compare to others on the team? Or better yet, for someone his own age in the NBA? Is he in the upper percentile of his bracket? Or the bottom? It all seems very subjective to me and perhaps that why I'm so quick to dismiss it. It would be like your Boss telling you on your next review "I want to see you improve your motor" vs. pointing to measurables that you can actually track.

Q12543 wrote:Carlos - I agree that in the assessment of Wiggins as a prospect, the motor/aggressiveness issue is a small part of it. But the comments from some of you seem to imply that this is just stuff myself and a couple of others are pulling out of thin air. This issue isn't new and the perception existed prior to his rookie year.

While I'd be perfectly fine with Wiggins becoming the next Paul George - a damn good two-way player before he got hurt - I'd love it even more if he came closer to being the next LeBron, Jordan, Bird, or Kobe.

Nobody is saying the "motor issue" wasn't in question, everyone is just pointing out that it's overblown when you look at his body of work over his first year in the nba. Just like Q says that "Everyone knows about what he accomplished his rookie season", everyone knows what people have said about his motor dating back to high school. Which is more relevant to me? What he proved on the court for a dreadful team last year. Most young players quit after losing 4/5 of their games. He didn't, he improved. If that doesn't put this "motor issue" to rest, then Im not sure what will.


Jordan, LeBron, and Bird are all out of this realm possibilities. Sure, everyone would love him to be one of those guys, but his skillset is not the same as any of them. Do you really think Wiggins is going to suddenly start nearing double digit assists on a nightly basis? He's not a point forward, and he just doesn't have the vision of those guys, nor the handle. I see him improving his rebounding to a good level, but as of now I do not see him being a nightly triple-double threat. If that's what you mean by him not having a motor, then fine I concede. Because I highly doubt he becomes that, high motor or not. I definitely do expect 20+ pts, 6-7ish rebounds, 3 assists, a high level of D and complimentary play, which last year he showed he can achieve. He's not a LeBron, MJ, Bird, Magic. He's an Andrew Freakin' Wiggins! Just because we received the #1 pick in a draft via a trade doesn't mean we received the next once-in-a-decade talent. Temper the expectations and just be happy we actually have a real player and not a Wes Johnson, Ndubi Ebi, Derrick Williams, Corey Brewer, Johnny Flynn, Randy Foye, etc.

Carlos Danger wrote:Q and Long - nothing wrong with a healthy discussion or debate. The one thing I'm having a difficult time with though it that there is no real way to measure what you guys are talking about. How does Wiggins motor compare to others on the team? Or better yet, for someone his own age in the NBA? Is he in the upper percentile of his bracket? Or the bottom? It all seems very subjective to me and perhaps that why I'm so quick to dismiss it. It would be like your Boss telling you on your next review "I want to see you improve your motor" vs. pointing to measurables that you can actually track.

Yeah, I get that, Anthony...I'm generally more comfortable with characteristics I can measure. But it seems to me that we discuss both measurable and unmeasurable characteristics on this board, and both are good fodder for conversation. There are a lot of smart basketball minds here, and observations about unmeasurable characteristics have some validity to me. Take Muhammad, for instance. I see him as a below average defender, although I don't question his effort at all. My eye test tells me that he is too often in the wrong place on defense. Can we measure it? Nope. But I think it's a good talker anyway.

My interest in this topic is because I truly think Wiggins could be a top 50 player some day...I think he's that good. But I first noticed his tendency to disappear at times when I began watching him at Kansas, and I noticed it a times last season too. Top 50 guys like Kobe and Jordan don't have those lapses, and seem to have an edge to them that made them better than lots of guys who had similar talent. You couldn't measure it, but you sure noticed it. That's what I want Wiggins to be. I want him to be thinking "I'm better than the other 9 guys on the court, and I'm going to show it consistently". You know, a little swagger. If he can develop that, there's no limit to how good he can be.

Ricky thinks he will win an MVP one day. I concur. If that happens all of these things will have taken care of themselves.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Ricky thinks he will win a FINALS MVP one day. I concur. If that happens all of these things will have taken care of themselves.

:thumb:

Rubioo and cool make some excellent points here and I agree with them.

I'm just tired of all this talk doubting Wiggins. This started 20 games into his career. When Wiggins proved them wrong. The naysayers soften up and will praise Wiggins some in their posts but will add a bunch of doubts and negativity in the same posts. We see posts saying he is a bleow average nba player, yeah right! It gets old.

I guarantee wiggins will drop 20/5/2.5/1.5/0.8 this season while hitting at lest 2 game winning shots and guard the best perimeter player of the opposing team and play the most minutes next season. I also guarantee we will still read the same posts from the same people doubting him.