I guess we'll find out what TC and Finchy put more weight on: the fact that we went 25-6 from the time Julius returned from injury through the first two rounds of the playoffs, or the fact that we got our azzes handed to us by the best team in the NBA. Right now this seems more important, but the 31 games before these 5 have to mean something.
We played mostly weak opponents or teams missing key players. And even without that, you can't attribute all that winning to just Ju. We had several players going well. This series has clearly spoken to me in terms of whether he should be back. Bringing him back sets a low ceiling for sure. I can't stand it when idiots like Doris refer to him and Ant as our two stars.
Good point, Cool. I’ll add that you can give only so much weight to what a 30 year old 9 year vet does in a one-month stretch of his career. We pretty much know who Randle is and also how he fits on this team. I like him and think he’s a good player. But he’s never going to be the second or even the third best player on a championship team. He’s a PF who turns the ball over way more than acceptable for a player at his position. He’s a poor defender and not a rim protector. He’s an excellent offensive player but not elite and not a floor spacer. I can see him as a rotation bench player at $15 million per year, but not a starter at $30 million per year. As you noted bringing him back sets a low ceiling. I thought your phrase captured it perfectly.
You guys make a fair point that we played a lot of weak opponents the last quarter of the year. I made the same point over and over again during our "magical" 2021-22 46-win season only to get eliminated in the first round of the playoffs...I believe I documented a few times that I counted only 3 or 4 wins against playoff teams at full strength all season. But still regardless of the opposition, you can't diminish how good a 17-4 finish to this season was (or 25-6 if you count the first two rounds of the playoffs!)...only a very competitive roster could do that, and that's what we have.
I talked about it in the "bring them all back?" thread, but I don't think Naz will ever be a starter on a good team. It's true that Julius has more turnovers than Naz, but a lot of that is because unlike Naz he works to get his teammates involved...he averaged almost double Naz's assists per 36. Ant doesn't need someone in the starting lineup who doesn't regularly pass, and our bench needs someone who can get buckets...Naz is both, and that's why he can't be a starter on this team if we're serious about winning.
60WinTim wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 9:51 pm
It's gonna be an interesting offseason. TC has been really good at addressing the deficiencies he sees. I know a lot of people say the KAT trade was done for basketball reasons, but I contend it was done more for the upcoming financial problems facing the Wolves, and that it was the best basketball move TC could make under that circumstance.
So now that the finances are manageable, TC can go back to making moves for basketball reasons.
KAT shot like 30% in the WCF last year, if he shoots league avg we were in the Finals (still likely to get smoked by Boston but sure). KAT's career is that of being mostly trash in the playoffs also (foul trouble and fouling out as well as well as subpar D), so considering he's due to make 60 mill in a couple years. Yikes. It's your problem now NY, you're stuck with him. Luckily we got rid of him just soon enough.
So in the end, I think it was basketball.
30%? You are just making numbers up to try and make KAT appear worse than he was. I crunched the numbers from last year and he shot 38% against Dallas. This year he is shooting over 50% in the conference finals. Way to cherrypick the season that KAT was recovering from a serious injury and then reduce it by 8% to make a phony point. KAT was the number one plus minus player on the Knicks for the Season. Randle was the second worst starter based on plus/minus for year. KAT is much better than Randle and younger. KAT was once considered the best young player to build a franchise around, then he got injured thanks to years of Thib's overplaying him, and he was pretty healthy again and was a top 5 statistical or fantasy player this year.
Woah 38%!!!
The point remains, the dude is a choke artist when it matters most. The shitty ass defense, foul trouble/fouling out and shooting 38%. Let's pay that guy 60 million.
I'd disagree, he'd lost a lot of value by last year. Trade him a year or two sooner and you'd likely see a Gobert like haul.
Sure, I was wanting to trade him 2 years prior myself!!! But his value was only going down and down. So soon enough I think makes sense.
He was never Julius Randle bad and he was coming off injury and anyone with half a brain could see this year as a rebound year for KAT. His value is plenty high now and way above Julius Randle dumpster fire value.
CONTRACT matters. You only see the on court stuff, which is half trash in the playoffs first of all, a roller coaster ride no fan wants to be a part of. Second of all his value relative to what he gets paid is abysmal. He'd be a fine play making 15 million like Naz. That is what he's worth.
- But... I saw something sorta good. I thought Edwards was really good to start this game (sans his lost three-point shot). He was aggressive creating for himself... and also GREAT looks for teammates through most of the early portions of this game. And he was doing it against a great defense allowed to body him. They just kept missing wide open looks.
He's nowhere close to where he needs to be as a creator, but I think the improvement is obvious to see.
[Note: Now spend the summer learning how to sell foul calls. It'll be +4 more points EVERY game.]
KAT shot like 30% in the WCF last year, if he shoots league avg we were in the Finals (still likely to get smoked by Boston but sure). KAT's career is that of being mostly trash in the playoffs also (foul trouble and fouling out as well as well as subpar D), so considering he's due to make 60 mill in a couple years. Yikes. It's your problem now NY, you're stuck with him. Luckily we got rid of him just soon enough.
So in the end, I think it was basketball.
30%? You are just making numbers up to try and make KAT appear worse than he was. I crunched the numbers from last year and he shot 38% against Dallas. This year he is shooting over 50% in the conference finals. Way to cherrypick the season that KAT was recovering from a serious injury and then reduce it by 8% to make a phony point. KAT was the number one plus minus player on the Knicks for the Season. Randle was the second worst starter based on plus/minus for year. KAT is much better than Randle and younger. KAT was once considered the best young player to build a franchise around, then he got injured thanks to years of Thib's overplaying him, and he was pretty healthy again and was a top 5 statistical or fantasy player this year.
Woah 38%!!!
The point remains, the dude is a choke artist when it matters most. The shitty ass defense, foul trouble/fouling out and shooting 38%. Let's pay that guy 60 million.
I guess you didn't watch KAT single handedly carry the Knicks to -a win over the Pacers. He played great against Jokic last year. 38%? Guys a career 50% plus shooter and for a big, he's one of best outside shooters and free throw shooters in the game. He's a better defender than Randle. And overall, he's much better than that turnover machine Randle who folds when he's pressured.
One more item about KAT, he's made the conference finals two years in a row with two different teams and he beat the returning champion twice: Denver in 2024 and Boston in 2025.
Last edited by KG4Ever on Thu May 29, 2025 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
KG4Ever wrote: ↑Wed May 28, 2025 10:58 pm
30%? You are just making numbers up to try and make KAT appear worse than he was. I crunched the numbers from last year and he shot 38% against Dallas. This year he is shooting over 50% in the conference finals. Way to cherrypick the season that KAT was recovering from a serious injury and then reduce it by 8% to make a phony point. KAT was the number one plus minus player on the Knicks for the Season. Randle was the second worst starter based on plus/minus for year. KAT is much better than Randle and younger. KAT was once considered the best young player to build a franchise around, then he got injured thanks to years of Thib's overplaying him, and he was pretty healthy again and was a top 5 statistical or fantasy player this year.
Woah 38%!!!
The point remains, the dude is a choke artist when it matters most. The shitty ass defense, foul trouble/fouling out and shooting 38%. Let's pay that guy 60 million.
I guess you didn't watch KAT single handedly carry the Knicks to -a win over the Pacers. He played great against Jokic last year. 38%? Guys a career 50% plus shooter and for a big, he's one of best outside shooters and free throw shooters in the game. He's a better defender than Randle. And overall, he's much better than that turnover machine Randle who folds when he's pressured.
One more item about KAT, he's made the conference finals two years in a row with two different teams and he beat the returning champion twice: Denver in 2024 and Boston in 2025.
He played great against Denver, but the major points remain. The dude is a rollercoaster, from great to trash and it's about a coin flip every game in the playoffs (see Mavs series). You see the upside but ignore his glaring weaknesses. You simply can't have a sieve for a center and win a championship IMO. That is the ultimate bottom line. Then when he shoots 38% in the WCF and fails miserably at what he is suppose to be good at? No thanks bud.
As a guy with a KG logo you should know that defense matters most in the playoffs. You give me great offense 50% of the time but never great defense (not paired with Rudy). No thanks.
I'm not defending Ju here either, his defense is lackluster and lazy way too much also. You could give me KAT for free, I'd pass.
AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Thu May 29, 2025 9:49 am
Abe's Last Next Day DVR Review of the 25 Season:
- Woof. Ouch.
- But... I saw something sorta good. I thought Edwards was really good to start this game (sans his lost three-point shot). He was aggressive creating for himself... and also GREAT looks for teammates through most of the early portions of this game. And he was doing it against a great defense allowed to body him. They just kept missing wide open looks.
He's nowhere close to where he needs to be as a creator, but I think the improvement is obvious to see.
[Note: Now spend the summer learning how to sell foul calls. It'll be +4 more points EVERY game.]
I don't want him to become a bitch like Harden / SGA. The flopping is so unappealing. I'd rather lose with respect then win as a bitch. No one likes SGA or Harden. (foul merchants)
AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Thu May 29, 2025 9:49 am
Abe's Last Next Day DVR Review of the 25 Season:
- Woof. Ouch.
- But... I saw something sorta good. I thought Edwards was really good to start this game (sans his lost three-point shot). He was aggressive creating for himself... and also GREAT looks for teammates through most of the early portions of this game. And he was doing it against a great defense allowed to body him. They just kept missing wide open looks.
He's nowhere close to where he needs to be as a creator, but I think the improvement is obvious to see.
[Note: Now spend the summer learning how to sell foul calls. It'll be +4 more points EVERY game.]
I don't want him to become a bitch like Harden / SGA. The flopping is so unappealing. I'd rather lose with respect then win as a bitch. No one likes SGA or Harden. (foul merchants)
I will say this about SGA....he tends to limit his complaints and moves on much better than we've seen from Ant or KAT (while he was with Minnesota).
I think what's disappointing about SGA's foul baiting is that he is clearly an elite talent without it. That mid-range shot of his is money. Not sure I've ever seen a more reliable go-to shot and it's just perfect for playoff basketball. He's the real deal that somewhat spoils his brand with all the falling down and theatrics. I will say that the refs have been falling for it less and less as the series went on, but he still crushed us.
The point remains, the dude is a choke artist when it matters most. The shitty ass defense, foul trouble/fouling out and shooting 38%. Let's pay that guy 60 million.
I guess you didn't watch KAT single handedly carry the Knicks to -a win over the Pacers. He played great against Jokic last year. 38%? Guys a career 50% plus shooter and for a big, he's one of best outside shooters and free throw shooters in the game. He's a better defender than Randle. And overall, he's much better than that turnover machine Randle who folds when he's pressured.
One more item about KAT, he's made the conference finals two years in a row with two different teams and he beat the returning champion twice: Denver in 2024 and Boston in 2025.
He played great against Denver, but the major points remain. The dude is a rollercoaster, from great to trash and it's about a coin flip every game in the playoffs (see Mavs series). You see the upside but ignore his glaring weaknesses. You simply can't have a sieve for a center and win a championship IMO. That is the ultimate bottom line. Then when he shoots 38% in the WCF and fails miserably at what he is suppose to be good at? No thanks bud.
As a guy with a KG logo you should know that defense matters most in the playoffs. You give me great offense 50% of the time but never great defense (not paired with Rudy). No thanks.
I'm not defending Ju here either, his defense is lackluster and lazy way too much also. You could give me KAT for free, I'd pass.
KAT was never the problem. He's certainly has his flaws, but what Wolf doesn't have flaws? He's not a great defender, but he's not a sieve like DLO or Ju either. He's very elite offensive player with career regular season averages of 52.4, 40.0 and 83.7. How many players have better offensive percentages across the board? Very few. Ju is more flawed than KAT, so he's a definite downgrade and I'd gladly give Ju away for free and maybe even add a pick to help get rid of him. KAT is better player than all the Wolves except for Ant. Maybe Jaden if he got better coaching and started asserting himself more on offensive has the potential to be better, but he's not there yet.
