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Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:38 am
by AbeVigodaLive
monsterpile wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Camden wrote:monsterpile wrote:D-Loser wrote:monsterpile wrote: Maybe I missed it but have you said the upgrades you see over Russell?
Yep, you missed it. Once you get me that list of every players availability, I'll be sure to get right on making my list of specific upgrades.
You said if people view Russell correctly and if they did then they could see quite a few upgrade scenarios. You say you view him correctly. What are they?
This is what I've been asking for through pages of this thread as well as others.
If you're set on moving forward without D'Angelo Russell, then surely there's some sort of plan. What is it? What are the options better than him and are they obtainable?
I haven't received an answer from
most here who have that view and the reason, I believe, is that there just aren't (m)any better options. The alternative is taking a tangible step back while
hopefully getting better elsewhere and
hopefully that improvement elsewhere exceeds what we currently have with Russell. There's a lot of wishful thinking there. I see very few scenarios at the moment where we move on from Russell and get better right away. Like I've said before, I think it's too early in Minnesota's trajectory to make that significant of a pivot.
For those that feel differently, please tell me how I'm wrong here. Or is it that you're fine with getting worse so long as Russell isn't on the roster anymore? I'm genuinely interested in the responses that I'm not sure I'll actually get here.
I think it depends on what the Wolves can get for Russell.
The PG position is pretty flush with talent right now... especially if that guy can come in as a clearcut 3rd fiddle. It might simply be whether a new similarly priced starting PG complements Edwards/Towns more than Russell.
But after watching Russell end the season with only 1 playoff game with more than 12 points and zero games with efficient shooting... and even being benched at the end of a closeout game... what can the Wolves get in return?
Personally, I don't think a ton. So, since we know this is a "likely/probably" a playoff team with Russell, I'm cool with keeping him for one more season.
But I wouldn't want to see the team retain him after next season. Let me him play for his next big contract elsewhere... best of both worlds.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:20 am
by thedoper
Is there a Knicks deal that makes sense - even if not now in the future? They have a unique blend of talent, not sure what it would be. If they view their core as Randle and Barrett we could maybe pick off some interesting pieces from them.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:09 pm
by rapsuperstar31
Any reason Cleveland doesn't want to give Sexton a big contract? Sexton sign and trade for Dlo?
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:32 pm
by Sundog
I like Sexton alot, He's a ball-dominant PG that wants/deserves a big payday and a bigger role than he'll get in Cleveland. Not sure he's a fit here, but I think he should be on the list. Cleveland's going to rely heavily on Garland as the #1 PG, not sure if they'd want Dlo. Maybe as a combo PG/SG, splitting minutes with Garland and LeVert.
What about a Kevin Love for Dlo trade -- exchange expirings, bring Love back to be the Wolves starting #4. Grab a PG with the mid-level ... Delon Wight, Tyus?
I started to type this idea as kind of a joke, but now I'm 2/3rds serious, lol
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:09 pm
by D-Mac [enjin:19736340]
Camden wrote:monsterpile wrote:D-Loser wrote:monsterpile wrote: Maybe I missed it but have you said the upgrades you see over Russell?
Yep, you missed it. Once you get me that list of every players availability, I'll be sure to get right on making my list of specific upgrades.
You said if people view Russell correctly and if they did then they could see quite a few upgrade scenarios. You say you view him correctly. What are they?
This is what I've been asking for through pages of this thread as well as others.
If you're set on moving forward without D'Angelo Russell, then surely there's some sort of plan. What is it? What are the options better than him and are they obtainable?
I haven't received an answer from
most here who have that view and the reason, I believe, is that there just aren't (m)any better options. The alternative is taking a tangible step back while
hopefully getting better elsewhere and
hopefully that improvement elsewhere exceeds what we currently have with Russell. There's a lot of wishful thinking there. I see very few scenarios at the moment where we move on from Russell and get better right away. Like I've said before, I think it's too early in Minnesota's trajectory to make that significant of a pivot.
For those that feel differently, please tell me how I'm wrong here. Or is it that you're fine with getting worse so long as Russell isn't on the roster anymore? I'm genuinely interested in the responses that I'm not sure I'll actually get here.
Yep, I told you my general plan. Since you obviously don't have a job, I'll let you look back at what I said. It's not a one for one replacement necessarily. It's probably a two year process also if we just let him expire. The goal is to repurpose his money more effectively. If you need something more specific, then like I said early, I'll get you ten detailed proposals once you send me a list of every player in the leagues specific availability. I know Conley probably doesn't even have this yet, but maybe y'all do since you're so damn brilliant lol
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:22 pm
by D-Mac [enjin:19736340]
rapsuperstar31 wrote:Any reason Cleveland doesn't want to give Sexton a big contract? Sexton sign and trade for Dlo?[/
This is a great example of a somewhat realistic trade that would make us better IMO. I think we'd need to throw in a couple 2nds or whatever, but I would do this. It's not hard to upgrade on Dlo.
Another example would be Dlo to the knicks for a couple smaller pieces that fit better. I'd love to get either Noel or Robinson back. The bar isn't high... Addition by subtraction and get some pieces that might compliment kat and ant better... OR if you're delusional you could just sign Dlo to a 4/100 extension while his value is low lol... you people honestly crack me up.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:35 pm
by Tactical unit
Basically they can try to maximize the asset, by figuring out what that price tag is that makes him an asset for most teams even with his flaws and lock him up for that amount. If you figure that out you have his skills and can move on from them whenever the time or price is right that would be win win.
My fear is they lock into him at a price that is too much and he becomes untradeable and we have salary locked up in a declining asset. Once it's playoff time all the hot sauce, thread the needle passes, and in your face shots tend to get harder and defense or lack of defense tends to get exposed. I think it will just become more clear that he's not a starting PG and he will want that kind of money. So again is he worth that kind of money?
I'm trying to see both sides here and there is a way to play it perfect if you get him at a decent price but I'm more in favor of moving on because I think MN has plenty of scoring and I prefer the best possible defenders around KAT and Edwards. It's a hard spot because DLO does bring skills to the table but if you want a championship caliber team, I think he's more of a liability than an asset.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:56 pm
by kekgeek
CoolBreeze44 wrote:kekgeek1 wrote:CoolBreeze44 wrote:Q-was-here wrote:At the end of the day here is what we know the wolves are 52-36 lifetime when Dlo and Kat play together
This is the DLO haters' blind spot and what they rarely acknowledge or just can't bring themselves to admit. The Wolves have been a damn good team when DLO and KAT play together and quite terrible when DLO doesn't play. And that's a big sample size over multiple seasons.
Now go back and look at KAT/Wiggins or KAT/LaVine playing together. Total train wreck.
My thesis on DLO is that he's a guy that can help you get from bad to good, but not necessarily from good to great. It's more of a long-term fit issue for me. I think Ant ultimately needs a different kind of PG next to him.
"When DLO doesn't play". Isn't that one of the big problems? Or doesn't that figure in to his value?
It should play a role but Dlo missed 17 games this year, 5 due to Covid (nothing you can do there). He was relatively healthy this year and in todays NBA right or wrong only missing 12 games due to injury/rest is standard in todays nba
Kek, you were one of his biggest detractors down the stretch of the season. And you were being objective in doing so. One could say that DLO gave us about 2 months of very good basketball after the all star break. Other than that he was at best pedestrian, and at worst awful. Let's be real.
Its context driven for me Cool. 100% down the stretch I was ripping Dlo left and right because he was not playing well the last 15ish games (after he missed that random game near the end of the season) of the regular season and then besides the Play In game he was bad in the postseason. I can't argue with that, and I wrote my displeasure with him on this board. I want to give more context here, I am 100% ok with moving on from Dlo the reason why I have been defending him so much in this forum is because I believe he isn't a negative asset at all and he for the most part during the season was a solid factor in winning basketball games for the wolves. Now if you can find me a trade that makes sense for Dlo I would trade him in a heart beat.
Some of the rumored trades for Dlo do nothing for me. Like Dlo for Kuzma and KCP, Dlo for Kemba and Noel, Dlo for Rose and Burks. Dlo for Reggie Jackson and Marcus Morris. None of those trades personally do anything for me and I don't think any of those trades make the wolves any better. The thing about trading Dlo away is it really hurts our shot creation. Lets pretend we do that Wizards trade for Kuzma an KCP. Outside of Ant, Nowell, Kat (who will be doubled teamed) and Kuzma a little bit the wolves would really struggle creating their own shot. We are 1 Ant injury away from really really really having issues to score the ball. Its the same thing as the Tyus replacement for Dlo. In theory I like the Tyus plan but I am really worried about trading a shot creator in Dlo for a game manager (I am not saying that in a negative way) in Tyus. I think the Wolves would struggle with any injuries to Ant or Kat in terms of shot creation.
I don't view Dlo as a negative asset, I want to play out this season and see how Dlo does. If Ant takes the next step, Dlo might be the perfect 3rd option next to Ant. If Ant takes the next step it might open the opportunity doesn't need to be a shot creator because Ant is so fucking good. Mcdaniels might develop into more than a catch and shoot or 2 dribble pull up guy and that makes Dlo role less important. Who knows maybe Nowell learns how to not be a bottom 5 defender in the NBA or Bolmoro actually develops into a legit player and Dlo skill set is not needed as much. But at this time those players I listed above are not that. I just think it is a big risk trading a shot creator for role guys when Ant, Mcdaniels are not at the level yet to take over Dlo playmaking and shot creating responsibilities.
You could talk me into a Dlo for Randle trade. You could talk me into a Dlo and Beasley for Rozier, Hayward, Washington trade because the Hornets want a PG next to Ball and they want to cut long term money. So I am 100% listening to trades for Dlo, I wouldn't extend Dlo, I also wouldn't trade Dlo just to trade Dlo. Like Dlo will be the 2nd best PG on the market in 2023. At the moment I just don't see the current upside in trading Dlo with the rumored trades that are out there or the market to improve in 2023 when the wolves will have max cap space.
So that is where I am coming from Cool. Im cool with moving on from Dlo but I do think the wolves need a legit plan if Dlo is traded. Because now in the Ant and Kat era playoffs are no longer the goal they are the expectation and I think the Wolves could fall shot of that if Dlo was traded in some of the hypothetical Wizards and Knicks trades.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:16 pm
by Q-is-here
Tactical unit wrote:Basically they can try to maximize the asset, by figuring out what that price tag is that makes him an asset for most teams even with his flaws and lock him up for that amount. If you figure that out you have his skills and can move on from them whenever the time or price is right that would be win win.
My fear is they lock into him at a price that is too much and he becomes untradeable and we have salary locked up in a declining asset. Once it's playoff time all the hot sauce, thread the needle passes, and in your face shots tend to get harder and defense or lack of defense tends to get exposed. I think it will just become more clear that he's not a starting PG and he will want that kind of money. So again is he worth that kind of money?
I'm trying to see both sides here and there is a way to play it perfect if you get him at a decent price but I'm more in favor of moving on because I think MN has plenty of scoring and I prefer the best possible defenders around KAT and Edwards. It's a hard spot because DLO does bring skills to the table but if you want a championship caliber team, I think he's more of a liability than an asset.
Yeah, that's where I'm at. It of course projects that Ant continues his rise to be a top 10 player, which may still be a couple years away or may never happen. But he certainly has all the ingredients and his current trajectory points toward this eventuality.
And if ultimately Ant becomes a fairly ball-dominant, high usage wing, and KAT is a high usage big, then you simply have to have three other guys on the floor that can defend at a high level.
Re: It's time to move on from DLO....
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:29 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Tactical unit wrote:Basically they can try to maximize the asset, by figuring out what that price tag is that makes him an asset for most teams even with his flaws and lock him up for that amount. If you figure that out you have his skills and can move on from them whenever the time or price is right that would be win win.
My fear is they lock into him at a price that is too much and he becomes untradeable and we have salary locked up in a declining asset. Once it's playoff time all the hot sauce, thread the needle passes, and in your face shots tend to get harder and defense or lack of defense tends to get exposed. I think it will just become more clear that he's not a starting PG and he will want that kind of money. So again is he worth that kind of money?
I'm trying to see both sides here and there is a way to play it perfect if you get him at a decent price but I'm more in favor of moving on because I think MN has plenty of scoring and I prefer the best possible defenders around KAT and Edwards. It's a hard spot because DLO does bring skills to the table but if you want a championship caliber team, I think he's more of a liability than an asset.
The bolded should be the plan, in my opinion. That's what I've outlined here although I've framed it differently. Get D'Angelo Russell extended at what is near fair market value before he can either outplay that number next season and/or other point guards reset the market. Not to mention, we could be nearing another spike in the cap, possibly as high as $175-million in the next few years, which means that a $20-25 million annual salary isn't really what we think of it now. Even $30-million a year would be acceptable in THAT context. The landscape of the NBA would change similar to how it did in 2016 onwards.
This team needs Russell next year and perhaps beyond that. They need his playmaking. They need the threat of his perimeter shot around Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards, and it would certainly help if he regressed back towards the shooter he's been the last handful of years, and they need him in clutch moments. There just aren't better, more available options for the Wolves, in my opinion. That's taking into account the next two free agent classes, the next couple of draft classes, and what looks to be a thin trade market for top notch guards. Most of the guys that are actually better than him are already secured long-term.
So, yeah, I think it would be ideal to get Russell on a long-term deal moving forward, assuming they can get him around the parameters I've illustrated above. I think Minnesota needs him. I think the alternative options are underwhelming. And I think the Wolves can continue to build this current group further before deciding they need a significant shakeup in the form of parting with Russell. If they decide to do that in two or three years, then so be it, but we'll have learned a lot more about this roster by then.