lipoli390 wrote:A lot of advanced stats can be unreliable and misleading. The bottom line for me is that the team is giving up a lot of points per game so far this month. It's poor defense, but as Cam mentioned, it's also poor offense impacting our defense. I see one really good defender on this roster by the name of Josh Okogie. Wiggins is better defensively than he's been, but he's not a top tier defender by any stretch. Ultimatelhy, it's hard to know how much of it is the lack of individual defensive talent versus poor coaching. I suspect it's both.
I still think its hardest to play defense with a big who is indecisive and has happy feet. The 4 guys in front of him have to be really good.
Teague 115.5
Kat 114.6
Cov 114.6
Graham 112.2
Wiggs 110.7
Culver 108.8
Okogie 107.5
These are the drtg for all the guys playing big minutes. Its not pretty.
lipoli390 wrote:A lot of advanced stats can be unreliable and misleading. The bottom line for me is that the team is giving up a lot of points per game so far this month. It's poor defense, but as Cam mentioned, it's also poor offense impacting our defense. I see one really good defender on this roster by the name of Josh Okogie. Wiggins is better defensively than he's been, but he's not a top tier defender by any stretch. Ultimatelhy, it's hard to know how much of it is the lack of individual defensive talent versus poor coaching. I suspect it's both.
I still think its hardest to play defense with a big who is indecisive and has happy feet. The 4 guys in front of him have to be really good.
Teague 115.5
Kat 114.6
Cov 114.6
Graham 112.2
Wiggs 110.7
Culver 108.8
Okogie 107.5
These are the drtg for all the guys playing big minutes. Its not pretty.
Yep, that's not pretty. It's hard to break down individual player contributions to a team's poor defense. Players have come and gone, but the Wolves have largely remained a bad defensive team throughout. Is Covington really as bad defensively as his 114.6 rating? Would that be his rating if he were still with the Sixers? I think the answer is: of course not. Defense in the NBA is a collective effort and bad team defense negatively impacts the defensive ratings of every player on that bad defensive team. Likewise, each bad individual defender hurts the defensive rating of his teammates. Yet, teams can compete for championships even when their best player is bad defensively. Houston has done it with James Harden.
Is having a good defensive big more important that having good defensive guards/wings? I'm not sure. The Bulls won 3 NBA championships with Luc Longley as their center. But they had Rodman as their PF along with two of the League's best wing defenders in Pippen and Jordan. As for the Wolves I've said for a long time now that the Wolves need a defensive/shot-blocking big to play alongside KAT. I continue to believe that. At the same time, we can't continue with a terrible defenders like Teague at the PG position. But I think our defensive woes go beyond the defensive capabilities of the Wolves individual players. There's something more fundamental going on.
I think the main reason the Wolves are struggling a lot is of course the defense is not good again, it is not as bad as it was under thibs but it is still bad. Now the Wolves offense can't bail them out. From being a top 10 offense under thibs we are 17th in the NBA now.
The Wolves don't really have an idenity. We are not gritty, we are not a good defensive team, we don't get to the FT line, we play fast (5th) and shoot a lot of 3s (5th). But we are 27th in 3pt %, so our identity of playing fast and shooting 3s is probably the weakest part of the squad.
Once again roster changes will have to be made but its just frustrating that once again the wolves struggle to do something well again.
Camden wrote:I don't know if you guys -- and gals (?) -- saw, but D'Angelo Russell displayed why he's a sought after commodity in the NBA tonight. Not only did he have 32 points (12-27 FG, 6-14 3P, 2-3 FT) and six assists (two turnovers), but he drilled a tough three that tied the game and sent it to overtime.
There's definitely a bit of a divide on the topic of trading for him, but at the very worst the guy is uber talented and fun to watch at the young NBA age of 23. There's probably a couple echelons of potential that he has yet to reach too.
Johnny One-Note, of course, sticking to your narrative. Fun to watch? I think just the opposite. Iso guys that play no defense are not fun to watch, especially when they are selfish stat padders who are net-negative players. Given your silly logic, lets try to acquire Melo and Isaiah Thomas too. At least we could have acquired them without giving up assets or crippling our salary cap for years.
As Culver drive and scored at the basket in a recent game I thought to myself...can he and Andrew Wiggins co-exist? It's not something to have to figure out now but something to file away.
Some other names that have been brought up on this forum in terms of PG are Fred VanVleet, Monte Morris, spencer Dinwiddie, and Malcom Brogdon. The highest stated player of that group was Brogdon. There are multiple paths to getting good players.
I was thinking a couple days ago about the DLO trade thing. A few months ago the idea that we would trade Wiggins for DLO would likely include us sending out other assets to do so. I can't remember what podcast it was but someone basically said something like isn't DLO and Wiggins sort of getting more like each other than before? It seems like to me at this point the value of those 2 players isn't THAT far apart. Do I still think Russell is more valuable? Yes because he plays a position as a playmaker that matters more. I think Wiggins plays much better defense though. So my thought was if Rosas could basically turn Wiggins into Russell that would be an amazing coup and I think even Cool would have done that deal last offseason. :) The good organizations get the most out of the resources they have. Like Lip mentioned it's time to expect a fun maybe even have some hope this one isn't just throwing darts at a dart board.
Dane Moore has a pretty good podcast. He writes some good stuff. Seems like a really good dude. I think he has some interesting insights and perspectives. Some of his takes I wildly disagree with. We are all on the same team here but just know I'm not stepping down from the top 5 starters on Abe's list like good teammate Teague. :)
On defense...I didn't watch the Utah game but Towns defense looks to have dropped off. It's not just him though either I think they scheme has broken down a bit. They are also trying to add new things in according to several reports so...take if for what you will. The Lakers killed them but...as I was yelling at my screen I also sat back and thought...damn these Lakers are looking good. I'm not suggesting the Wolves were playing well but the Lakers were playing terrific and that's for a head coach who is a defensive guy and there were questions about whether the game passed him by. Talent matters the most (Kuzma feels like an afterthought) but so far so good for the Lakers.
Camden wrote:I don't know if you guys -- and gals (?) -- saw, but D'Angelo Russell displayed why he's a sought after commodity in the NBA tonight. Not only did he have 32 points (12-27 FG, 6-14 3P, 2-3 FT) and six assists (two turnovers), but he drilled a tough three that tied the game and sent it to overtime.
There's definitely a bit of a divide on the topic of trading for him, but at the very worst the guy is uber talented and fun to watch at the young NBA age of 23. There's probably a couple echelons of potential that he has yet to reach too.
Johnny One-Note, of course, sticking to your narrative. Fun to watch? I think just the opposite. Iso guys that play no defense are not fun to watch, especially when they are selfish stat padders who are net-negative players. Given your silly logic, lets try to acquire Melo and Isaiah Thomas too. At least we could have acquired them without giving up assets or crippling our salary cap for years.
I will say, I know you made the post to get mad at Cam. But assuming the Cap stays similar to this year approx. 109 million. The Wolves have 106 million in cap tied up next year and that is including, no draft pick, not bringing anyone back, so the Wolves cap space is pretty crippling no matter if we add Dlo or not add Dlo. In 2 years the wolves will have 94 million tied up when Gorgui comes off the books and once again that does not include any other player being added including Draft picks.
Wolves will never have the money as long as Wiggins and Kat are on the roster to make moves to add higher proven roll players.
Wolves do not have cap space going forward, adding Dlo or not adding Dlo. Wolves need to hit on draft picks and finding diamond in the rough players via FA and drafting.
Kek, we are not keeping Teague and Dieng's salary goes away in one more year away and this will open up opportunities for the Wolves. DLO is a waste of money and would be a massively dumb move. He makes our biggest problem worse-perimeter defense and he would be a bad fit with Wiggs. We need to spend our money wisely. We need to find the right pieces to build around KAT and Wiggs. I mentioned Monte Morris as someone who fits much better than DLO and Denver snagged him on a minimum deal. We need to acquire Morris type guys or develop them. I think we hired Rosas to build a culture, find talent in the draft, develop them and coach them up--it would be a mistake to get impatient and try to quick-fix away problems in salary crippling moves that may also cost us young assets.
KG4Ever wrote:Kek, we dump Teague and Dieng is just one more year away. DLO is a waste of money and would be a massively dumb move. He makes our biggest problem worse-perimeter defense and he would be a bad fit with Wiggs. We need to spend our money wisely.
Ya I understand you opinion not wanting Dlo because what you think about him as a player. (your right to have that evaluation) I am more saying that the Wolves are not going to have cap space even with Teague and Gorgui off the books. We will never have a chance to add a player via FA that can make over 10 million a year because of the cap restraints that Kat and Wiggins will have going forward.
Before I type what I am going to type I want to say, Goguri and Teague are bad contracts but I do think an underrated part of all this is after this year, Wolves will not have Teague big number to make a trade for a higher salaried players. In two years Wolves will have no big contracts to be filler to add players.
In two years Wolves will have contact #s of
Wiggins and Kat: max #s
Cov around 10 million
And then every other player will be on a rookie deal (Okogie is extentsion eligible).
After this year is is going to be really hard to add a big salary player without giving up multiple young assets to make salaries match and that should be taken into consideration.
lipoli390 wrote:A lot of advanced stats can be unreliable and misleading. The bottom line for me is that the team is giving up a lot of points per game so far this month. It's poor defense, but as Cam mentioned, it's also poor offense impacting our defense. I see one really good defender on this roster by the name of Josh Okogie. Wiggins is better defensively than he's been, but he's not a top tier defender by any stretch. Ultimatelhy, it's hard to know how much of it is the lack of individual defensive talent versus poor coaching. I suspect it's both.
I still think its hardest to play defense with a big who is indecisive and has happy feet. The 4 guys in front of him have to be really good.
Teague 115.5
Kat 114.6
Cov 114.6
Graham 112.2
Wiggs 110.7
Culver 108.8
Okogie 107.5
These are the drtg for all the guys playing big minutes. Its not pretty.
I actually looked at KAT's DRTG about when the Wolves were 10-8 or so. I believe his ORTG was around 120 while his DRTG was 102. I was impressed at how great his stats were at the time.
Sorry I have no recollection of the stats of others as I didn't view them, however it is interesting how this last 6 game skid has destroyed the Wolves rankings on defense, which were largely above avg.
I agree with the others that DRTG is a team stat, but it also can be career wise looked at when compared to other players. Great defensive players over the long term will rate highly overall. Even if they have a few bad seasons here or there based on bad teammates.
I agree with Lip that the best thing the Wolves could get is a true PF floor spacer (3P shooter) who can defend at a high level. However, these guys don't grow on trees. I was liking Brandon Clarke in the draft ONLY if he was able to prove in workouts to be a solid 3P shooter. As I don't have workout info I was never able to attain wether I ultimately would have drafted him at 11 personally.
GS gave up assets to get DLO. They aren't going to just sell low on him. Personally I think this season they are going to have to get a very attractive offer to deal him before the trade deadline. Why? In the offseason there will be plenty of opportunities. They will have a better idea of what they will be getting in the draft. What if they trade for a piece now and end up drafting a guy that plays that position? It just seems like this offseason is the time a deal is more likely to happen which is what a few reporters have been saying for months now.
Would I give up Covington and salary filler? Probably.
Culver and salary filler? Sure no brainer
Wiggins straight up? Tough call...feels so weird to say that. Lol
Some other platter of young players like Okogie and KBD and filler? Idk depends on how much.
I don't think any of those deals is enough. Cam wants Russell but isn't willing to give up more than Covington. I don't think that's going to get it done. I'm intrigued by adding Russell as I always have been but I've always been worried about the price...oh and he did get the max. That's expensive if he isn't worth it and we know about that because of Mr. Wiggins.
Personally I like the idea of looking at other options. Maybe we have the answer on the roster somewhere that isn't expected. Maybe keep building a bit and see if we can be the next team to do a sign and trade deal to get a nice young player. Devonte Graham is another guy that would look pretty good on the roster right now and he was a 2nd round pick.
