Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I heard yesterday that Houston could put a package together around John Wall.

Philadelphia is not going to take on John Wall's contract.

It only has 2 years remaining. It depends on what comes along with it.

You have to remember that John Wall makes $44-million this year. That's $11-million more than Ben Simmons. Then account for the fact that Philadelphia is over the luxury tax threshold. That bill gets inflated super quickly.

Additionally, what is Houston going to offer? Jalen Green? Christian Wood? The fit is just weird.

Here's an excerpt from a recent Jon K article comparing the situation leading up to Minnesota trading Jimmy Butler and the current situation involving Ben Simmons:

But here is another major difference: Butler knew that Tom Thibodeau, the Timberwolves coach and president of basketball operations at the time, desperately wanted Butler to stay in Minnesota. He was Thibodeau's major move, the player he trusted as much as any on the roster. Thibodeau didn't connect as strongly with Towns, Andrew Wiggins or many of the other players he inherited when he took the job, so he brought in a bunch of his old Bulls to bolster his influence and try to get the Timberwolves back to relevance. They made the playoffs in 2017-18, snapping the longest active drought in the NBA, and Thibodeau believed with a healthy Butler in 2018-19, they could climb even higher.
In Philly, Simmons appears to have run his course. He is coming off of a disastrous playoff performance against the Atlanta Hawks and it was reported that the Sixers had tried to trade him earlier in the season for James Harden. Simmons' fit with Joel Embiid has long been scrutinized as well.

Thibs dug in when Butler demanded his trade, demanding a King's ransom at first for Butler because he could credibly posit to other GMs how much he wanted and needed Butler to succeed in Minnesota.

Sixers boss Daryl Morey appears to have dug in with Simmons as well, but most league observers believe that Simmons will eventually be traded. So in some ways, Morey will be in a similar position to Thibs in that rival executives will try to back him into a corner and wait for things to get really uncomfortable with Simmons, thereby driving down the asking price. But Morey is much more experienced in front office work than was Thibodeau, a coach to his core who had not yet started his third season as the lead decision-maker. Those around the league believe that if there is any executive able to stomach the circus that is sure to descend upon Philly, to block out the noise that comes with this kind of drama, it's Morey.

Thibodeau and Scott Layden, the Wolves GM at the time, tried to stick it out with Butler. They rode it into the season, believing they could hold it together and smooth things over. When Philly first inquired, Thibs asked for Embiid and Simmons in return for Butler, an absurd ask designed more to discourage teams from trying than to have real dialogue. They eventually were boxed in and probably underestimated Butler's willingness to make a mess of things. As the season descended into angst and chaos, they eventually settled for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and Jerryd Bayless for Butler and Justin Patton. They didn't get a single draft pick for their most important player.

Thibodeau is a much better coach than Morey. Morey is a far more accomplished executive than Thibodeau. Fortunately for Philly, they need a lead executive in this situation. Butler was a better player in much higher standing at the time of his trade than Simmons is now, but Simmons is still a 25-year-old three-time All-Star and one of the best defenders in the league with four years left on his deal.

What it all might come down to is this: when Butler was lighting the Wolves organization on fire, Towns distanced himself from the entire situation, not wanting to get dragged through the mud with Butler and Thibodeau. How far will Simmons go to orchestrate his exit? And will Embiid sit back and watch it all happen?

I'd forgotten that Thibodeau laughably asked for Embiid and Simmons in return for Butler. Of course, that reminded me of why I was so disgusted with Thibodeau at the time. He was obviously stubbornly resisting the reality that he'd have to trade Butler and he resisted in a passive aggressive way by making ridiculous demands for Butler. In the end, the Wolves had to settle for Covington, Saric and Bayless with no picks. As Jon K points out, Butler was a more valuable player at the time than Simmons is now. But Thibodeau really botched the situation by first allowing Butler to play things out publicly rather than simply trading him early when Butler told him privately that he wanted out and then by stubbornly refusing to deal in good faith with other teams who were interested.

The situation with Simmons today is similar in many respects in that Morey, like Thibs, appears to have allowed things to spin out of control and diminish the market value a player he needs to trade. It's different in that Morey wants to trade Simmons while Thibodeau wanted to keep Butler. But both of them tripped over their own egos -- Thibodeau's ego telling him he could convince Butler to stay and Morey's ego telling him he could outsmart or overpower his front office counterparts and get at least close to what he wanted. The end result for Morey is essentially identical to the end result for Thibodeau - namely a player who needs to be moved, but whose market value has been substantially reduced.

However, as Jon K points out, Morey is a much smarter front office executive than Thibodeau, who is a terrific head coach but had never even worked in a front office before Taylor gave him the top spot here. So perhaps Morey will be able to climb out of the hole he dug himself into in a way Thibodeau simply could not. We'll see. But as some among us talk about giving up Ant to get Simmons -- yes, I'm talking to you, FNG :), let's remember that the Wolves had to settle for Covington, Saric and Bayless (no picks) in exchange for one of the best two-way players , Jimmy Butler. I'm not suggesting that we should expect the Sixers to end up with a similarly paltry return for Simmons. But I am suggesting that Morey's handling of the Simmons situation, coupled with the ill-considered public comments of Doc Rivers and Joel Embiid, will ultimately require Morey to accept a lot less for Simmons than the deals he's been seeking and there is absolutely no reason to give up a star talent like Anthony Edwards or a current star like KAT to get him. If the Sixers would prefer a VanVleet/Anunoby, Sexton/Love, Sexton/Okoro or Haliburton/Hield package over a DLO/Beasley package, then so be it. When Thibodeau demanded Bam Adebayo in return for Butler, Pat Riley hung up the phone. That's exactly what Rosas should do if Morey even again asks him for Anthony Edwards. For all we know, that hang up has already happened. :)

lipoli390 wrote:Here's an excerpt from a recent Jon K article comparing the situation leading up to Minnesota trading Jimmy Butler and the current situation involving Ben Simmons:

But here is another major difference: Butler knew that Tom Thibodeau, the Timberwolves coach and president of basketball operations at the time, desperately wanted Butler to stay in Minnesota. He was Thibodeau's major move, the player he trusted as much as any on the roster. Thibodeau didn't connect as strongly with Towns, Andrew Wiggins or many of the other players he inherited when he took the job, so he brought in a bunch of his old Bulls to bolster his influence and try to get the Timberwolves back to relevance. They made the playoffs in 2017-18, snapping the longest active drought in the NBA, and Thibodeau believed with a healthy Butler in 2018-19, they could climb even higher.
In Philly, Simmons appears to have run his course. He is coming off of a disastrous playoff performance against the Atlanta Hawks and it was reported that the Sixers had tried to trade him earlier in the season for James Harden. Simmons' fit with Joel Embiid has long been scrutinized as well.

Thibs dug in when Butler demanded his trade, demanding a King's ransom at first for Butler because he could credibly posit to other GMs how much he wanted and needed Butler to succeed in Minnesota.

Sixers boss Daryl Morey appears to have dug in with Simmons as well, but most league observers believe that Simmons will eventually be traded. So in some ways, Morey will be in a similar position to Thibs in that rival executives will try to back him into a corner and wait for things to get really uncomfortable with Simmons, thereby driving down the asking price. But Morey is much more experienced in front office work than was Thibodeau, a coach to his core who had not yet started his third season as the lead decision-maker. Those around the league believe that if there is any executive able to stomach the circus that is sure to descend upon Philly, to block out the noise that comes with this kind of drama, it's Morey.

Thibodeau and Scott Layden, the Wolves GM at the time, tried to stick it out with Butler. They rode it into the season, believing they could hold it together and smooth things over. When Philly first inquired, Thibs asked for Embiid and Simmons in return for Butler, an absurd ask designed more to discourage teams from trying than to have real dialogue. They eventually were boxed in and probably underestimated Butler's willingness to make a mess of things. As the season descended into angst and chaos, they eventually settled for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and Jerryd Bayless for Butler and Justin Patton. They didn't get a single draft pick for their most important player.

Thibodeau is a much better coach than Morey. Morey is a far more accomplished executive than Thibodeau. Fortunately for Philly, they need a lead executive in this situation. Butler was a better player in much higher standing at the time of his trade than Simmons is now, but Simmons is still a 25-year-old three-time All-Star and one of the best defenders in the league with four years left on his deal.

What it all might come down to is this: when Butler was lighting the Wolves organization on fire, Towns distanced himself from the entire situation, not wanting to get dragged through the mud with Butler and Thibodeau. How far will Simmons go to orchestrate his exit? And will Embiid sit back and watch it all happen?

I'd forgotten that Thibodeau laughably asked for Embiid and Simmons in return for Butler. Of course, that reminded me of why I was so disgusted with Thibodeau at the time. He was obviously stubbornly resisting the reality that he'd have to trade Butler and he resisted in a passive aggressive way by making ridiculous demands for Butler. In the end, the Wolves had to settle for Covington, Saric and Bayless with no picks. As Jon K points out, Butler was a more valuable player at the time than Simmons is now. But Thibodeau really botched the situation by first allowing Butler to play things out publicly rather than simply trading him early when Butler told him privately that he wanted out and then by stubbornly refusing to deal in good faith with other teams who were interested.

The situation with Simmons today is similar in many respects in that Morey, like Thibs, appears to have allowed things to spin out of control and diminish the market value a player he needs to trade. It's different in that Morey wants to trade Simmons while Thibodeau wanted to keep Butler. But both of them tripped over their own egos -- Thibodeau's ego telling him he could convince Butler to stay and Morey's ego telling him he could outsmart or overpower his front office counterparts and get at least close to what he wanted. The end result for Morey is essentially identical to the end result for Thibodeau - namely a player who needs to be moved, but whose market value has been substantially reduced.

However, as Jon K points out, Morey is a much smarter front office executive than Thibodeau, who is a terrific head coach but had never even worked in a front office before Taylor gave him the top spot here. So perhaps Morey will be able to climb out of the hole he dug himself into in a way Thibodeau simply could not. We'll see. But as some among us talk about giving up Ant to get Simmons -- yes, I'm talking to you, FNG :), let's remember that the Wolves had to settle for Covington, Saric and Bayless (no picks) in exchange for one of the best two-way players , Jimmy Butler. I'm not suggesting that we should expect the Sixers to end up with a similarly paltry return for Simmons. But I am suggesting that Morey's handling of the Simmons situation, coupled with the ill-considered public comments of Doc Rivers and Joel Embiid, will ultimately require Morey to accept a lot less for Simmons than the deals he's been seeking and there is absolutely no reason to give up a star talent like Anthony Edwards or a current star like KAT to get him. If the Sixers would prefer a VanVleet/Anunoby, Sexton/Love, Sexton/Okoro or Haliburton/Hield package over a DLO/Beasley package, then so be it. When Thibodeau demanded Bam Adebayo in return for Butler, Pat Riley hung up the phone. That's exactly what Rosas should do if Morey even again asks him for Anthony Edwards. For all we know, that hang up has already happened. :)

There are 2 reasons that the Wolves package for Butler looks less exciting.

1. The Wolves wanted to be good. They got 2 players that had played key roles on a winning basketball team. This does compare to Philly who might end up settling for lesser assets because they want to win now. I do think as Cam has pointed out that Morey may have a vision of using assets to make another move but I think it's likely Morey ends up taking what helps him now rather than later. Getting assets that seem more certain now often means less picks etc.

2. Salary. Covington and Saric cost like 12 or 13 million a year and that was for 2 guys that were considered starters at the time of the trade (Saric had been struggling that season) and Covington by himself was worth more than that in salary. Will the Sixers be willing to go further into the Luxury tax for the right deal? I would guess they would be willing to go a little farther but I kinda doubt they are gonna go too crazy into the tax.

These 2 situations aren't exactly alike but they are really similar. I'd be surprised if Morey gets taken away from the negotiations and replaced with the guy below him Elton Brand like what happened with Thibs and Layden had to make the best deal he could. Morey will get more for Simmons but I think it might only equal 1 more asset and it is unlikely to include a player that is a star.

Brian Windhorst: On opening night I think he's gonna be in Los Angeles filming jump shot videos. He may be on the roster but I don't think he's gonna be there. (...) I don't think Ben Simmons plays another game in a Sixers uniform. 11 hours ago - via YouTube

I have no doubt that Morey is a better front office executive than Thibodeau. But Morey has a bigger ego than just about any NBA front office executive, past or present, and that ego has put him in roughly the same position that Thibodeau was in several years ago with Butler. No matter how smart he is, Morey can't control Simmons or Simmons' agent and after overplaying his hand he can't control the market. Morey will have to trade Simmons in the next 30 days or so and he can't expect to get a star lead guard like Beal or Lillard in return one for one. Morey will have to accept a lead guard in the next tier down -- someone like VanVleet, DLO, Sexton or DeJounte Murray -- if he wants to deal Simmons and get some other assets in return. I still think Morey has a shot at Lillard or Beal if he substantially ups the ante by including other valuable assets along with Simmons. Maybe it's Simmons and future 1st-round picks. Or maybe it's Simmons plus Thybulle and Maxey or Curry, Maxey and a a couple future picks.

lipoli390 wrote:Brian Windhorst: On opening night I think he's gonna be in Los Angeles filming jump shot videos. He may be on the roster but I don't think he's gonna be there. (...) I don't think Ben Simmons plays another game in a Sixers uniform. 11 hours ago - via YouTube

I have no doubt that Morey is a better front office executive than Thibodeau. But Morey has a bigger ego than just about any NBA front office executive, past or present, and that ego has put him in roughly the same position that Thibodeau was in several years ago with Butler. No matter how smart he is, Morey can't control Simmons or Simmons' agent and after overplaying his hand he can't control the market. Morey will have to trade Simmons in the next 30 days or so and he can't expect to get a star lead guard like Beal or Lillard in return one for one. Morey will have to accept a lead guard in the next tier down -- someone like VanVleet, DLO, Sexton or DeJounte Murray -- if he wants to deal Simmons and get some other assets in return. I still think Morey has a shot at Lillard or Beal if he substantially ups the ante by including other valuable assets along with Simmons. Maybe it's Simmons and future 1st-round picks. Or maybe it's Simmons plus Thybulle and Maxey or Curry, Maxey and a a couple future picks.

I'm not being completely serious here but what makes Philly so much better as a team than Portland? Portland has been to a conference finals. Philly hasn't. It feels like they have opposite problems. Portland sometimes struggles in the regular season but then sometimes really plays well in the playoffs (except last season). You can make an argument that Philly has underachieved for a team that's uploaded to be a contender.

Wizards...well that's a bit of a different story although obviously some of them not being good is due to injuries but that could be a problem again. Still I think IF that group could stay healthy they might be pretty good. There is a variety of talent there and a healthy Dinwiddie is a nice player to pair with Beal. Let's say the Wizards get off to a bad start and the door is open on a Beal trade. Morey isn't the only team that will be interested. There is no guarantee some other team doesn't step up with a better package.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Brian Windhorst: On opening night I think he's gonna be in Los Angeles filming jump shot videos. He may be on the roster but I don't think he's gonna be there. (...) I don't think Ben Simmons plays another game in a Sixers uniform. 11 hours ago - via YouTube

I have no doubt that Morey is a better front office executive than Thibodeau. But Morey has a bigger ego than just about any NBA front office executive, past or present, and that ego has put him in roughly the same position that Thibodeau was in several years ago with Butler. No matter how smart he is, Morey can't control Simmons or Simmons' agent and after overplaying his hand he can't control the market. Morey will have to trade Simmons in the next 30 days or so and he can't expect to get a star lead guard like Beal or Lillard in return one for one. Morey will have to accept a lead guard in the next tier down -- someone like VanVleet, DLO, Sexton or DeJounte Murray -- if he wants to deal Simmons and get some other assets in return. I still think Morey has a shot at Lillard or Beal if he substantially ups the ante by including other valuable assets along with Simmons. Maybe it's Simmons and future 1st-round picks. Or maybe it's Simmons plus Thybulle and Maxey or Curry, Maxey and a a couple future picks.

I'm not being completely serious here but what makes Philly so much better as a team than Portland? Portland has been to a conference finals. Philly hasn't. It feels like they have opposite problems. Portland sometimes struggles in the regular season but then sometimes really plays well in the playoffs (except last season). You can make an argument that Philly has underachieved for a team that's uploaded to be a contender.

Wizards...well that's a bit of a different story although obviously some of them not being good is due to injuries but that could be a problem again. Still I think IF that group could stay healthy they might be pretty good. There is a variety of talent there and a healthy Dinwiddie is a nice player to pair with Beal. Let's say the Wizards get off to a bad start and the door is open on a Beal trade. Morey isn't the only team that will be interested. There is no guarantee some other team doesn't step up with a better package.

Great points, Monster!

I think Morey will simply wait for the market to emerge before he makes a bad deal. The Sixers will make the playoffs whether Simmons plays or not. Simmons will either be traded when the right deal presents itself, or he will eventually report and play.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think Morey will simply wait for the market to emerge before he makes a bad deal. The Sixers will make the playoffs whether Simmons plays or not. Simmons will either be traded when the right deal presents itself, or he will eventually report and play.

There are 2 questions I have IF Morey decides to follow through on this plan.

1. Does Simmons and Rich Paul (and Adel) allow this to happen or do they make things messy?

2. I think this is a more important point...will ownership be up to going through this scenario?

Just to be clear I'm not saying your scenario doesn't happen but I do think there could be some other factors that could influence what Morey does. It will be interesting.

I doubt the Ben Simmons situation will linger on for much longer than a week or two into the season. You have to remember that current Sixers players and coaches will grow very tired of answering questions about Simmons not being with the team. I don't expect ownership to be a fan of letting the situation fester either. It doesn't matter how stubborn Daryl Morey is. He's going to have to find an acceptable deal sooner rather than later. Also, I worry about his job security after all of this is said and done. He's the key catalyst in running him out of Philadelphia eventually for pennies on the dollar. Good luck.

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think Morey will simply wait for the market to emerge before he makes a bad deal. The Sixers will make the playoffs whether Simmons plays or not. Simmons will either be traded when the right deal presents itself, or he will eventually report and play.

There are 2 questions I have IF Morey decides to follow through on this plan.
1. Does Simmons and Rich Paul (and Adel) allow this to happen or do they make things messy?

2. I think this is a more important point...will ownership be up to going through this scenario?

Just to be clear I'm not saying your scenario doesn't happen but I do think there could be some other factors that could influence what Morey does. It will be interesting.

Monster, Simmons and Paul can only do so much. He's under contract and really doesn't have any leverage except to not show up. I think it would work with a lot of GM's, but Morey is different. I don't see him being as affected by power plays from players. As far as ownership goes, They have enough pieces without Simmons to be competitive. The fan base will still show up because most don't care about Simmons at this point. So I think ownership will back Morey for the time being. I'm starting to think that for Simmons to get his wish on being moved, he will have to start playing at some point. Doc and Embiid may have to make things right with him for the comments they made. We're a very forgiving society. Simmons could make a lot of things go away by playing well like he usually does. If they win their first playoff series, attitudes could change very quickly. I'd say it's better than 50/50 Ben's next game is for Philadelphia.