Trade Talks Update

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I found this on Hoopshype, apparently written by the athletic

All across the NBA, with more than half the league having shown varying levels of interest in landing the four-time All-Star, the feedback coming Butler's way remains the same: Minnesota's asking price is far too high, inter-team communication is sometimes an exercise in futility, and the counter-offers that the Timberwolves have provided are, as Butler's side sees it, downright delusional.

I'm just wondering how the counter offers are downright delusional when Jimmy thinks we should have cleared cap to give him a 5 yr/ 190 mil deal. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good as he thinks, at least not in the eyes of the NBA.

Damn, I hope this drags out for the rest of the season.

Well, it would seem that both Thibodeau and Jimmy have overestimated Jimmy's value. Of course, it doesn't matter what Thibodeau and Jimmy think. The market sets his value based on what teams around the League are willing to give up for him under the circumstances, weighing the wins he can add as an allstar in his prime against the following negatives:

1. He's not a superstar - although Thibodeau and Butler think he is
2. He has a hard time staying healthy, consistently missing 15 games a season
3. He has a history of alienating teammates
4. He has only 1 season left on his contract, which means he could be a 1-yr rental
5. Re-signing him will be expensive, requiring a long-term contract beyond his prime
6. The Wolves have limited leverage given his trade demand just before the season

If the Wolves don't trade him before the season, the market will dry up entirely until the January/February time frame when a team might be in a situation that sparks an interest in dealing for Butler to compete for a championship. But that's unlikely. In other words, the best offers for Butler will come before the season starts. Just letting Butler walk next summer does NOT make the Wolves players in the free agent market next summer.

I don't know about you, but I would put a 16 win improvement in 1 season in the superstar category. He was 20th in win shares and didn't even play 1/3rd of the season. We were the 3 seed beating everyone around us in the standings in the most stacked conference that has been seen in a while in this league. Jimmy is still somehow being underrated by everyone.

Some people claim guys are superstars that don't actually play defense. Butler might not be a superstar offensive player (but a very good one) but he plays well above average defense. His ability to play both sides of the ball when healthy makes him incredibly valueable.

Yeah, I agree with elements of what all parties are saying. I agree that Butler is indeed a superstar (I don't know what else to attribute the 16 win improvement last year, and it was clear how different this team looked when he was on the court), but I also agree with all of the other points Lip makes as to why it's going to be difficult to trade Butler.

I wonder about Lip's comment that letting Butler walk does not make us players in the free agent market. If there are no deals out there that are attractive, I think Taylor has to consider not making a trade and using the $38 million freed up by Butler and (hopefully) Teague to land a free agent that helps us more than the garbage that is being offered in trade. I would think that KAT/Wiggins plus a new dynamic coach might make the Wolves an attractive destination for a very good player that wants to chase a title as part of a Big 3.

[thedoper]

I found this on Hoopshype, apparently written by the athletic

All across the NBA, with more than half the league having shown varying levels of interest in landing the four-time All-Star, the feedback coming Butler's way remains the same: Minnesota's asking price is far too high, inter-team communication is sometimes an exercise in futility, and the counter-offers that the Timberwolves have provided are, as Butler's side sees it, downright delusional.

I'm just wondering how the counter offers are downright delusional when Jimmy thinks we should have cleared cap to give him a 5 yr/ 190 mil deal. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good as he thinks, at least not in the eyes of the NBA.

Damn, I hope this drags out for the rest of the season.

Well, it would seem that both Thibodeau and Jimmy have overestimated Jimmy's value. Of course, it doesn't matter what Thibodeau and Jimmy think. The market sets his value based on what teams around the League are willing to give up for him under the circumstances, weighing the wins he can add as an allstar in his prime against the following negatives:

1. He's not a superstar - although Thibodeau and Butler think he is
2. He has a hard time staying healthy, consistently missing 15 games a season
3. He has a history of alienating teammates
4. He has only 1 season left on his contract, which means he could be a 1-yr rental
5. Re-signing him will be expensive, requiring a long-term contract beyond his prime
6. The Wolves have limited leverage given his trade demand just before the season

If the Wolves don't trade him before the season, the market will dry up entirely until the January/February time frame when a team might be in a situation that sparks an interest in dealing for Butler to compete for a championship. But that's unlikely. In other words, the best offers for Butler will come before the season starts. Just letting Butler walk next summer does NOT make the Wolves players in the free agent market next summer.

I don't know about you, but I would put a 16 win improvement in 1 season in the superstar category. He was 20th in win shares and didn't even play 1/3rd of the season. We were the 3 seed beating everyone around us in the standings in the most stacked conference that has been seen in a while in this league. Jimmy is still somehow being underrated by everyone.

Some people claim guys are superstars that don't actually play defense. Butler might not be a superstar offensive player (but a very good one) but he plays well above average defense. His ability to play both sides of the ball when healthy makes him incredibly valueable.

Yeah, I agree with elements of what all parties are saying. I agree that Butler is indeed a superstar (I don't know what else to attribute the 16 win improvement last year, and it was clear how different this team looked when he was on the court), but I also agree with all of the other points Lip makes as to why it's going to be difficult to trade Butler.

I wonder about Lip's comment that letting Butler walk does not make us players in the free agent market. If there are no deals out there that are attractive, I think Taylor has to consider not making a trade and using the $38 million freed up by Butler and (hopefully) Teague to land a free agent that helps us more than the garbage that is being offered in trade. I would think that KAT/Wiggins plus a new dynamic coach might make the Wolves an attractive destination for a very good player that wants to chase a title as part of a Big 3.

I agree LST, if we're only getting offered long term contracts for mediocre players I'm fine with the cap space. We can do better, hopefully like Kemba Walker better.

[mjs34]

Don't know if anyone posted this yet, but if correct, it shows just how stupid the offers have been.

https://www.getmoresports.com/jimmy-butler-trade-talks-show-hazards-sportswriting-profession/

[Monster]

Don't know if anyone posted this yet, but if correct, it shows just how stupid the offers have been.

https://www.getmoresports.com/jimmy-butler-trade-talks-show-hazards-sportswriting-profession/

Thanks for posting this. Sheridan is kinda weird. A few years ago he was kinda one of the guys in the know and then kinda dropped off the face of the earth. Last week he was one of the guys on Twitter saying the Heat were getting somewhere on a deal for Butler making it sound pretty close to being done. He tweeted a pic that he said someone told him was supposedly Butler at Miami airport. From the responses it was at O'hare and possibly at least 3 years ago. Lol Maybe he was trying to be funny or something.

I would guess he probably does still have some contacts and the beginning of this article was interesting but yeah just saying. The most interesting thing to me if true is he reported Thibs wants nothing to do with Whiteside. Wolfson has reported some league folks have told him that they don't know why the Wolves would want White side and I think also Wolfson reported some league people he spoke to don't view Whiteside positively which likely isn't a surprise. I don't really see the purpose of bringing back Whiteside either and I bet Glen would have something to say about trading a guy like Dieng for a guy like whiteside.

[Coolbreeze44]

I found this on Hoopshype, apparently written by the athletic

All across the NBA, with more than half the league having shown varying levels of interest in landing the four-time All-Star, the feedback coming Butler's way remains the same: Minnesota's asking price is far too high, inter-team communication is sometimes an exercise in futility, and the counter-offers that the Timberwolves have provided are, as Butler's side sees it, downright delusional.

I'm just wondering how the counter offers are downright delusional when Jimmy thinks we should have cleared cap to give him a 5 yr/ 190 mil deal. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good as he thinks, at least not in the eyes of the NBA.

Damn, I hope this drags out for the rest of the season.

Well, it would seem that both Thibodeau and Jimmy have overestimated Jimmy's value. Of course, it doesn't matter what Thibodeau and Jimmy think. The market sets his value based on what teams around the League are willing to give up for him under the circumstances, weighing the wins he can add as an allstar in his prime against the following negatives:

1. He's not a superstar - although Thibodeau and Butler think he is
2. He has a hard time staying healthy, consistently missing 15 games a season
3. He has a history of alienating teammates
4. He has only 1 season left on his contract, which means he could be a 1-yr rental
5. Re-signing him will be expensive, requiring a long-term contract beyond his prime
6. The Wolves have limited leverage given his trade demand just before the season

If the Wolves don't trade him before the season, the market will dry up entirely until the January/February time frame when a team might be in a situation that sparks an interest in dealing for Butler to compete for a championship. But that's unlikely. In other words, the best offers for Butler will come before the season starts. Just letting Butler walk next summer does NOT make the Wolves players in the free agent market next summer.

Great post Lip, agree with every single point.

[rapsuperstar31]

I wonder what Phoenix thinks of Josh Jackson, they have been rumored as looking for a pg. I wonder if something like this might work.
Miami gets Butler
Phoenix gets Dragic and a Miami first
Minnesota gets Bam, Josh Jackson, and Tyson Chandler to make the money work

If Phoenix prefers Teague for some reason you could do
Miami gets Butler
Phoenix gets Teague and Miami first
Minnesota gets Bam, Josh Jackson and Dragic

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Was it Jimmy who set last Friday as a deadline?

[Lipoli390]

I found this on Hoopshype, apparently written by the athletic

All across the NBA, with more than half the league having shown varying levels of interest in landing the four-time All-Star, the feedback coming Butler's way remains the same: Minnesota's asking price is far too high, inter-team communication is sometimes an exercise in futility, and the counter-offers that the Timberwolves have provided are, as Butler's side sees it, downright delusional.

I'm just wondering how the counter offers are downright delusional when Jimmy thinks we should have cleared cap to give him a 5 yr/ 190 mil deal. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good as he thinks, at least not in the eyes of the NBA.

Damn, I hope this drags out for the rest of the season.

Well, it would seem that both Thibodeau and Jimmy have overestimated Jimmy's value. Of course, it doesn't matter what Thibodeau and Jimmy think. The market sets his value based on what teams around the League are willing to give up for him under the circumstances, weighing the wins he can add as an allstar in his prime against the following negatives:

1. He's not a superstar - although Thibodeau and Butler think he is
2. He has a hard time staying healthy, consistently missing 15 games a season
3. He has a history of alienating teammates
4. He has only 1 season left on his contract, which means he could be a 1-yr rental
5. Re-signing him will be expensive, requiring a long-term contract beyond his prime
6. The Wolves have limited leverage given his trade demand just before the season

If the Wolves don't trade him before the season, the market will dry up entirely until the January/February time frame when a team might be in a situation that sparks an interest in dealing for Butler to compete for a championship. But that's unlikely. In other words, the best offers for Butler will come before the season starts. Just letting Butler walk next summer does NOT make the Wolves players in the free agent market next summer.

I don't know about you, but I would put a 16 win improvement in 1 season in the superstar category. He was 20th in win shares and didn't even play 1/3rd of the season. We were the 3 seed beating everyone around us in the standings in the most stacked conference that has been seen in a while in this league. Jimmy is still somehow being underrated by everyone.

Some people claim guys are superstars that don't actually play defense. Butler might not be a superstar offensive player (but a very good one) but he plays well above average defense. His ability to play both sides of the ball when healthy makes him incredibly valueable.

Yeah, I agree with elements of what all parties are saying. I agree that Butler is indeed a superstar (I don't know what else to attribute the 16 win improvement last year, and it was clear how different this team looked when he was on the court), but I also agree with all of the other points Lip makes as to why it's going to be difficult to trade Butler.

I wonder about Lip's comment that letting Butler walk does not make us players in the free agent market. If there are no deals out there that are attractive, I think Taylor has to consider not making a trade and using the $38 million freed up by Butler and (hopefully) Teague to land a free agent that helps us more than the garbage that is being offered in trade. I would think that KAT/Wiggins plus a new dynamic coach might make the Wolves an attractive destination for a very good player that wants to chase a title as part of a Big 3.

Did Taj Gibson have anything to do with that 16 game improvement? How about the improvement of Tyus? Wasn't our bench, though bad, still better than the previous season? So yes, Butler had a huge impact, but I don't think he can take full credit for the entire 16-game improvement. In fact, I think the Wolves were 3 games under .500 without Butler last season. That's a lot better than finishing 20 games under .500 as the Wolves did the prior season.

We can all have different ideas for defining superstar, so no point debating the label any further. What matters is how much other NBA front offices value Butler. I doubt any front office puts him in the same strata as K Leonard, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, James Harden, or LeBron James. Then you have to factor in Butler's injury history, age, contract situation, and player relations issues along with the Wolves limited leverage. If we're honest with outselves, we can't expect to get as much as we gave up in return. Look at what the Spurs got for Leonard and assume significantly less. Butler is older and isn't considered the same level player as Leonard. Oh, the Spurs had the whole summer during which teams were wheeling and dealing. It's much harder for teams to make a big personnel trade just a week or so before the regular season.

Regarding the Wolves chances of landing a very good free agent next summer if Butler isn't traded, I think it's unlikely for the following three reasons:

1. I don't envision the Wolves have much cap space because I can't see Teague giving up $19 million. Moreover, we'll probably need to re-sign Taj Gibson, which should cost less than $14 million but will likely cost at least $7 million. KAT's deal kicks in at around $27 million. I havent' taken the time to add it all up, but I wouldn't count on having enough money to be a big-time FA player.

2. The Wolves will likely end up in the lottery this season, so we won't be viewed as a destination for players who want to win.

3. I'm not convinced the Wolves will replace Thibodeau at all before next summer and even if they do I'm not confidence they will hire the sort of dynamic head coach you and I have wanted them to hire for some time now.

In any event, the market will determine Butler's value and so far, based on reports from reliable reporters, his value isn't particularly high.

[rapsuperstar31]

I found this on Hoopshype, apparently written by the athletic

All across the NBA, with more than half the league having shown varying levels of interest in landing the four-time All-Star, the feedback coming Butler's way remains the same: Minnesota's asking price is far too high, inter-team communication is sometimes an exercise in futility, and the counter-offers that the Timberwolves have provided are, as Butler's side sees it, downright delusional.

I'm just wondering how the counter offers are downright delusional when Jimmy thinks we should have cleared cap to give him a 5 yr/ 190 mil deal. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good as he thinks, at least not in the eyes of the NBA.

Damn, I hope this drags out for the rest of the season.

Well, it would seem that both Thibodeau and Jimmy have overestimated Jimmy's value. Of course, it doesn't matter what Thibodeau and Jimmy think. The market sets his value based on what teams around the League are willing to give up for him under the circumstances, weighing the wins he can add as an allstar in his prime against the following negatives:

1. He's not a superstar - although Thibodeau and Butler think he is
2. He has a hard time staying healthy, consistently missing 15 games a season
3. He has a history of alienating teammates
4. He has only 1 season left on his contract, which means he could be a 1-yr rental
5. Re-signing him will be expensive, requiring a long-term contract beyond his prime
6. The Wolves have limited leverage given his trade demand just before the season

If the Wolves don't trade him before the season, the market will dry up entirely until the January/February time frame when a team might be in a situation that sparks an interest in dealing for Butler to compete for a championship. But that's unlikely. In other words, the best offers for Butler will come before the season starts. Just letting Butler walk next summer does NOT make the Wolves players in the free agent market next summer.

I don't know about you, but I would put a 16 win improvement in 1 season in the superstar category. He was 20th in win shares and didn't even play 1/3rd of the season. We were the 3 seed beating everyone around us in the standings in the most stacked conference that has been seen in a while in this league. Jimmy is still somehow being underrated by everyone.

Some people claim guys are superstars that don't actually play defense. Butler might not be a superstar offensive player (but a very good one) but he plays well above average defense. His ability to play both sides of the ball when healthy makes him incredibly valueable.

Yeah, I agree with elements of what all parties are saying. I agree that Butler is indeed a superstar (I don't know what else to attribute the 16 win improvement last year, and it was clear how different this team looked when he was on the court), but I also agree with all of the other points Lip makes as to why it's going to be difficult to trade Butler.

I wonder about Lip's comment that letting Butler walk does not make us players in the free agent market. If there are no deals out there that are attractive, I think Taylor has to consider not making a trade and using the $38 million freed up by Butler and (hopefully) Teague to land a free agent that helps us more than the garbage that is being offered in trade. I would think that KAT/Wiggins plus a new dynamic coach might make the Wolves an attractive destination for a very good player that wants to chase a title as part of a Big 3.

Did Taj Gibson have anything to do with that 16 game improvement? How about the improvement of Tyus? Wasn't our bench, though bad, still better than the previous season? So yes, Butler had a huge impact, but I don't think he can take full credit for the entire 16-game improvement. In fact, I think the Wolves were 3 games under .500 without Butler last season. That's a lot better than finishing 20 games under .500 as the Wolves did the prior season.

We can all have different ideas for defining superstar, so no point debating the label any further. What matters is how much other NBA front offices value Butler. I doubt any front office puts him in the same strata as K Leonard, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, James Harden, or LeBron James. Then you have to factor in Butler's injury history, age, contract situation, and player relations issues along with the Wolves limited leverage. If we're honest with outselves, we can't expect to get as much as we gave up in return. Look at what the Spurs got for Leonard and assume significantly less. Butler is older and isn't considered the same level player as Leonard. Oh, the Spurs had the whole summer during which teams were wheeling and dealing. It's much harder for teams to make a big personnel trade just a week or so before the regular season.

Regarding the Wolves chances of landing a very good free agent next summer if Butler isn't traded, I think it's unlikely for the following three reasons:

1. I don't envision the Wolves have much cap space because I can't see Teague giving up $19 million. Moreover, we'll probably need to re-sign Taj Gibson, which should cost less than $14 million but will likely cost at least $7 million. KAT's deal kicks in at around $27 million. I havent' taken the time to add it all up, but I wouldn't count on having enough money to be a big-time FA player.

2. The Wolves will likely end up in the lottery this season, so we won't be viewed as a destination for players who want to win.

3. I'm not convinced the Wolves will replace Thibodeau at all before next summer and even if they do I'm not confidence they will hire the sort of dynamic head coach you and I have wanted them to hire for some time now.

In any event, the market will determine Butler's value and so far, based on reports from reliable reporters, his value isn't particularly high.

Teague may opt out, half the teams could have $20 million plus to spend this Summer with the salary cap jumping to 109 million and expected to jump even higher to 118 million in 2020. If Teague has a decent year, he may opt out to get a longer contract for the security.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Imo, we are giving jimmy to much credit fir our improvement. Taj, teague, abd kats improvement also played a big part.

People also like to bring up that we were just under. 500 without jimmy. But, the biggest reason we weren't over. 500 is due to a lack of wing depth. You take out one of the best players (butler)in the league and replace him with the worst (crawford), you just arent going to win much.