Ben Simmons Talk Revived

[KG4Ever]

I can see a how a deal with the Cavs involving Sexton or Garland could make a lot of sense for both teams.

Benefit to the Cavs: After signing Markkanen, the Cavs have a solid foundation of shooters/scorers, which would allow them to give up Sexton or Garland and still have plenty of offensive fire-power with perimeter shooting to blend well with the defensive playmaker Ben Simmons.

Benefit to the Sixers: Sexton averaged 24.5 points per game on 47.5% shooting and 37% shooting from behind the arc. Garland averaged 17.4 points and 6 assists while hitting 39.5% of his threes. Both are young with considerable remaining upside. Either one would blend well with Embiid, Harris and Thybulle. Kevin Love would be included for salary-match purposes. As we all know, the Cavs have wanted to unload him for a while. He just doesn't fit with the Cavs' timeline. But he'd be an excellent fit for the win-now Sixers and with Embiid and Harris, Love wouldn't have to carry a load that he can no longer handle at this stage in his career. He still hit nearly 37% of his threes last season and pulled down 7.4 rebounds in only 25 games. The year before he played 56 games and averaged 9.8 rebounds per game while hitting 37.4% of his threes. He hasn't been very durable lately, but he would fit well with the Sixers.

There are 2 problems with your proposed deal.

1. Does Philly want to pay Kevin Love 29 million in 2022-2023 season? No because nobody wants to.

2. What is Sexton going to cost in terms of salary? This would matter less if they weren't already paying Love 29 million to be kinda decent. Will Sexton cost a max deal? Is he worth that? Honestly I have no idea I only look at the numbers which quite frankly look pretty damn good and he runs 23 in January. It would be interesting to hear some takes about both him and Garland from people who actually saw them play more than a couple of games last year.

Monster and Lip, I think the other problem with any deal involving Garland and/or Sexton is that both of you would have a decent chance of putting up 20 on either of them on any given night...and I don't even know how good your mid-range games are! My sense is that, unlike Rosas, Morey understands you need to have guys who can make stops, and he's been able to watch Simmons defend for 4 years. Will he be willing to take on either of these two guys? I don't know.

As I read the article you attached, Lip, I had two thoughts. First, leaking the fines story tells me that Morey plans to play hardball with Ben, and isn't likely to budge if some team doesn't step up with an offer he deems sufficient. Second, if you click through a couple of the links in the article, you get to a statement that says Rosas has annoyed Morey by refusing to include Dlo in any deal. Two things come to mind when I read that. It seems to imply Morey is open to a deal involving Dlo, but if Rosas refuses to bring in Simmons because he won't give up Dlo, he should be tarred and feathered and run out of town.

FNG - Interesting tidbit about Morey's annoyance over Rosas refusing to include DLO. I'll have to go back and check out those links. Rosas might just be posturing. But Rosas also has to consider how trading DLO might impact KAT. So maybe that's a big part of Gersson's refusal to include DLO. Or perhaps Morey is demanding 3 or more lightly-protected 1st-round picks and McDaniels in addition to DLO, in which case I can understand Rosas saying to Morey, you don't get DLO. Right now, I'd say that every GM around the League is annoyed by Morey - and understandably so. Apparently, at least one GM hung up the phone on Morey because his demands were so ridiculous. The Sixers organization and fan base want to trade Simmons and Morey expects to get a king's random in return. It doesn't work that way - except perhaps in Morey's egomaniacal mind.

As for the Sexton or Garland + Love idea, it would be defense for offense trade, which is precisely the outcome of any realistic Simmons deal will be. You're right that Morey has been watching Simmons defender for 4 years. And now, after watching him for those 4 years he wants to trade him. He wants someone who will take and hit perimeter shots and free-throws and still be able to run the offense as a lead guard. Sexton and Garland can do those things at a very high level. They're not great defenders like Simmons but that's the obvious and inevitable trade off. Kevin Love's defensive shortcomings are manageable when you have a defensive stud like Embiid as your center and a sold defenders like Harris on the wing. It's not like you can win a championship with Kevin Love.

But Rosas also has to consider how trading DLO might impact KAT.

This is something I don't really agree with. KAT is not the GM and shouldn't dictate what the club decides will improved it. Other friends of KAT's have been traded (Lavine, Covington) or not resigned (Bazz) and KAT is still here. I think the Wolves being better is just as much a lure to keep KAT resigned. But in the unlikely event DLO being traded away makes a difference, the Wolves can rebuild around Ant, Jaden and Ben and get a nice haul for KAT. I'm ok with either scenario.

[Lipoli390]

I can see a how a deal with the Cavs involving Sexton or Garland could make a lot of sense for both teams.

Benefit to the Cavs: After signing Markkanen, the Cavs have a solid foundation of shooters/scorers, which would allow them to give up Sexton or Garland and still have plenty of offensive fire-power with perimeter shooting to blend well with the defensive playmaker Ben Simmons.

Benefit to the Sixers: Sexton averaged 24.5 points per game on 47.5% shooting and 37% shooting from behind the arc. Garland averaged 17.4 points and 6 assists while hitting 39.5% of his threes. Both are young with considerable remaining upside. Either one would blend well with Embiid, Harris and Thybulle. Kevin Love would be included for salary-match purposes. As we all know, the Cavs have wanted to unload him for a while. He just doesn't fit with the Cavs' timeline. But he'd be an excellent fit for the win-now Sixers and with Embiid and Harris, Love wouldn't have to carry a load that he can no longer handle at this stage in his career. He still hit nearly 37% of his threes last season and pulled down 7.4 rebounds in only 25 games. The year before he played 56 games and averaged 9.8 rebounds per game while hitting 37.4% of his threes. He hasn't been very durable lately, but he would fit well with the Sixers.

There are 2 problems with your proposed deal.

1. Does Philly want to pay Kevin Love 29 million in 2022-2023 season? No because nobody wants to.

2. What is Sexton going to cost in terms of salary? This would matter less if they weren't already paying Love 29 million to be kinda decent. Will Sexton cost a max deal? Is he worth that? Honestly I have no idea I only look at the numbers which quite frankly look pretty damn good and he runs 23 in January. It would be interesting to hear some takes about both him and Garland from people who actually saw them play more than a couple of games last year.

Monster - The money thing is definitely an issue that cuts against Philly agreeing to this deal. But if they believe this deal could keep them in the championship hunt and maybe get them over the hump, the Sixers will live with paying Love that money for another year or two. Assuming Philly gets a couple 1st-round picks in return, they can use those to help move him as an expiring contract after next season. They can also buy him out after next season.

As for whether Sexton and Garland would command and be worth max contracts, I'm in the same boat as you. Sexton in particular has impressive stats, but like you I haven't seen them play much.

I agree that the Sixers may ultimately be willing to pay that money to Love but taking on that contract might mean another asset coming to Philly for taking that on. Is that something the Cavs would be willing to do basically give up another 1st round pick in that package? I mean we both know that even with a lower expected return Sexton or Garland aren't enough for Simmons so how many picks will the Cavs gave to throw in to get Simmons...and then maybe to offset that Love contract? Maxey going to the Cavs would help with that and he would slot in as a young SG. The question is how much does the Cavs want Simmons? Since neither of us have seen Garland and Sexton it's hard to say how much Morey would value either guy in a trade.

I'll also add that while I think Morey does want to trade Simmons I think he wants to trade Simmons because he wants to trade him for a basically a better player. He doesn't want to trade him at all costs he sees him as an asset. That's fair to some extent but I also think (speculating) that's partly what has pissed off Simmons. Simmons knows he is gone the first chance Morey gets but Morey has been asking crazy stuff for him just waiting for the right opportunity. Morey has the right to do what he has done but there are consequences for every action. I can't blame Simmons for saying he is done. Some would say that reflects poorly on Simmons which might be true also. Morey utilized his power to try and get what he wanted and didn't seem to care or consider the consequences. Simmons now looks to be using his power to get what he wants.

I typically say things aren't as bad as they seem but we have now seen this playbook a few times and I think there is enough reporting to say things are not good between Simmons and the Sixers. Simmons will be traded and until then it's going to be pretty awkward. Maybe Simmons will play a few games like Butler and Harden did but how did that work out? Maybe the Nets did up their offer. Honestly I kinda doubt it but I obviously don't know.

Good analysis, Monster. I agree. Morey wants to trade Simmons. He would like to trade him for an elite offensive lead guard who fits better like Beal, Lillard or Fox. But it's clear he won't get that caliber player. The market has spoken and told him he can't expect to get those players in return for Simmons -- unless perhaps he significantly sweetens his outgoing package. I think Morey has two choices.

One choice would be to trade Simmons for a packaged built around a bevy of lightly-protected 1st round picks that he could later turn around in a deal next February or next summer for the elite offensive player he wants. That's Cam's scenario. It's a plausible one, but in my view it's too speculative and the benefit is too delayed to make sense for the Sixers.

The other choice would be to trade Simmons for a package centered around a lead guard who is offensively talented, but not elite like Beal or Lillard. Morey could realistically expect to get a future pick or two as well, but not a lot of picks and not without some meaningful protection. That's the scenario that I'm expecting to unfold over the next 30 days. The lead guards that I would consider realistically available in a package for Simmons are: VanVleet, Sexton, Garland, Brogdon, Haliburton and Russell. It's been reported that VanVleet, Brogdon and Sexton have already been offered in packages that Morey rejected. It's also been reported that Garland, Haliburton and Russell are not currently on the table as possible chips for Simmons. However, I could see all three, including DLO, eventually being made available in offers for Simmons.

Regarding a package built around Sexton or Garland, I don't think Morey could expect more than 2 future 1st-round picks with at least one of them lottery protected. If that's not good enough for Morey, he can see if Toronto is still offering VanVleet and Anunoby along one future 1st. If that's not good enough, he can see if the Kings would put Haliburton back in the mix along with Barnes. If that's not what he wants, he can see if Indiana is still offering Brogdon and change. Otherwise, it looks like Rosas will probably offer him Beasley, Prince and 4 or 5 future 1st-round picks (Cam's scenario). If Morey doesn't want any of the above, then he's stuck with a disgruntled player holding out. That's an untenable situation for Morey. Bottom line, he'll have to settle for one of the secondary packages I listed or something comparable I haven't identified. He's not going to get Beal or Lillard - not now, not ever. If I turn out to be wrong, I expect to see my last sentenced repeated often on this message board. :)

[Lipoli390]

Just to cover my behind - I could see Morey getting Lillard if he offers significant assets in addition to Simmons as inducement -- e.g., future 1st round picks, Maxey, Curry, etc.

[Monster]

Just to cover my behind - I could see Morey getting Lillard if he offers significant assets in addition to Simmons as inducement -- e.g., future 1st round picks, Maxey, Curry, etc.

I've had this same thought. Then I think about how Lilliard has pretty much been loyal to the franchise and hasn't asked out. Is Neil Olshay gonna be the guy that says "Dame I'm sorry but we got an offer we simply can't refuse..." there are a few ways that could go wrong. That theoretical scenario kinda reminds me of how KG ended up leaving MN. I'm not saying it won't or shouldn't happen but there is a human element there that should be considered and possibly not be underestimated. Maybe Olshay will simply do what he thinks is best for the franchise.

Of course what I said above is to some extent a contrast to the way Morey seems to have operated. Just to be clear I'm not expecting basketball executives to be the nice guy all the time.

[Lipoli390]

Just to cover my behind - I could see Morey getting Lillard if he offers significant assets in addition to Simmons as inducement -- e.g., future 1st round picks, Maxey, Curry, etc.

I've had this same thought. Then I think about how Lilliard has pretty much been loyal to the franchise and hasn't asked out. Is Neil Olshay gonna be the guy that says "Dame I'm sorry but we got an offer we simply can't refuse..." there are a few ways that could go wrong. That theoretical scenario kinda reminds me of how KG ended up leaving MN. I'm not saying it won't or shouldn't happen but there is a human element there that should be considered and possibly not be underestimated. Maybe Olshay will simply do what he thinks is best for the franchise.

Of course what I said above is to some extent a contrast to the way Morey seems to have operated. Just to be clear I'm not expecting basketball executives to be the nice guy all the time.

Monster - I agree with the difficulty Olshay would have in deciding to trade Lillard. The contrast between Lillard's situation and Simmons' situation helps explain their different market values. In Lillard, you have a player who doesn't want to leave his current teams and whose teams doesn't want to trade him. In Simmons you have a player who wants out and a team that wants him out, as evidenced by the fact they've been aggressively shopping him since the moment they were eliminated from the playoffs. I'm certain that if Lillard gets traded at some point, for Simmons or someone else, it will be a reluctant parting for both Portland and Lillard. As a result, I don't see Lillard's trade value diminishing like we've seen with Simmons. The problem for Philly is that Morey over-estimated Simmons' value in the first place and grossly overplayed his hands in the initial discussions and proposals out of the gate. The way Philly has gone about shopping Simmons, along with comments by the head coach and Embiid, has created acrimony that has further diminished Simmons' market value.

[Wolvesfan21]

Does Lillard have a no trade clause? Even if he doesn't he can simply end up in Philly and demand a trade too. With the Superstar players you really need to do what they want. Second tier guys don't have as much say, a guy like McCollum, but Lillard does.

I think a Simmons trade won't net a player at Simmons value or higher, they are going to need to settle for picks and 2nd tier level type players. Yes I think Lillard has more value then Simmons, even if on court wise Simmons might be a better player (considering the defensive difference).

[Monster]

Just to cover my behind - I could see Morey getting Lillard if he offers significant assets in addition to Simmons as inducement -- e.g., future 1st round picks, Maxey, Curry, etc.

I've had this same thought. Then I think about how Lilliard has pretty much been loyal to the franchise and hasn't asked out. Is Neil Olshay gonna be the guy that says "Dame I'm sorry but we got an offer we simply can't refuse..." there are a few ways that could go wrong. That theoretical scenario kinda reminds me of how KG ended up leaving MN. I'm not saying it won't or shouldn't happen but there is a human element there that should be considered and possibly not be underestimated. Maybe Olshay will simply do what he thinks is best for the franchise.

Of course what I said above is to some extent a contrast to the way Morey seems to have operated. Just to be clear I'm not expecting basketball executives to be the nice guy all the time.

Monster - I agree with the difficulty Olshay would have in deciding to trade Lillard. The contrast between Lillard's situation and Simmons' situation helps explain their different market values. In Lillard, you have a player who doesn't want to leave his current teams and whose teams doesn't want to trade him. In Simmons you have a player who wants out and a team that wants him out, as evidenced by the fact they've been aggressively shopping him since the moment they were eliminated from the playoffs. I'm certain that if Lillard gets traded at some point, for Simmons or someone else, it will be a reluctant parting for both Portland and Lillard. As a result, I don't see Lillard's trade value diminishing like we've seen with Simmons. The problem for Philly is that Morey over-estimated Simmons' value in the first place and grossly overplayed his hands in the initial discussions and proposals out of the gate. The way Philly has gone about shopping Simmons, along with comments by the head coach and Embiid, has created acrimony that has further diminished Simmons' market value.

Take this for whatever it's worth but from my view:

Embiid certainly didn't come to defend Simmons so that's part of the issue. Note that his recent tweets came in response to an article (didn't read it) with a headline saying it was a choice this summer either Simmons or Embiid. First of all that's kinda silly as nobody is gonna be like "Yep we are gonna keep Simmons and trade Embiid..." I felt like Embiid's tweets didn't really say he wanted Ben back just that he doesn't hate his guts or anything. Does Embiid think it's time to move on from Simmons? Yes but I'd guess a majority of basketball fans and people around the sport think that makes sense to trade him and get a better fit. I'm sure Embiid selfishly wants the team to be better around him but I wouldn't be surprised if he also thinks Simmons going elsewhere would be good for Ben and his career. I could see Simmons not being very happy with Embiid though and regardless Embiid is part of why they are where they are with Simmons. I'm being a nice here but I don't think Embiid dislikes Simmons. Somehow teammates seemed to still really like Andrew Wiggins and he is at least as puzzling as Simmons.

[Lipoli390]

Just to cover my behind - I could see Morey getting Lillard if he offers significant assets in addition to Simmons as inducement -- e.g., future 1st round picks, Maxey, Curry, etc.

I've had this same thought. Then I think about how Lilliard has pretty much been loyal to the franchise and hasn't asked out. Is Neil Olshay gonna be the guy that says "Dame I'm sorry but we got an offer we simply can't refuse..." there are a few ways that could go wrong. That theoretical scenario kinda reminds me of how KG ended up leaving MN. I'm not saying it won't or shouldn't happen but there is a human element there that should be considered and possibly not be underestimated. Maybe Olshay will simply do what he thinks is best for the franchise.

Of course what I said above is to some extent a contrast to the way Morey seems to have operated. Just to be clear I'm not expecting basketball executives to be the nice guy all the time.

Monster - I agree with the difficulty Olshay would have in deciding to trade Lillard. The contrast between Lillard's situation and Simmons' situation helps explain their different market values. In Lillard, you have a player who doesn't want to leave his current teams and whose teams doesn't want to trade him. In Simmons you have a player who wants out and a team that wants him out, as evidenced by the fact they've been aggressively shopping him since the moment they were eliminated from the playoffs. I'm certain that if Lillard gets traded at some point, for Simmons or someone else, it will be a reluctant parting for both Portland and Lillard. As a result, I don't see Lillard's trade value diminishing like we've seen with Simmons. The problem for Philly is that Morey over-estimated Simmons' value in the first place and grossly overplayed his hands in the initial discussions and proposals out of the gate. The way Philly has gone about shopping Simmons, along with comments by the head coach and Embiid, has created acrimony that has further diminished Simmons' market value.

Take this for whatever it's worth but from my view:

Embiid certainly didn't come to defend Simmons so that's part of the issue. Note that his recent tweets came in response to an article (didn't read it) with a headline saying it was a choice this summer either Simmons or Embiid. First of all that's kinda silly as nobody is gonna be like "Yep we are gonna keep Simmons and trade Embiid..." I felt like Embiid's tweets didn't really say he wanted Ben back just that he doesn't hate his guts or anything. Does Embiid think it's time to move on from Simmons? Yes but I'd guess a majority of basketball fans and people around the sport think that makes sense to trade him and get a better fit. I'm sure Embiid selfishly wants the team to be better around him but I wouldn't be surprised if he also thinks Simmons going elsewhere would be good for Ben and his career. I could see Simmons not being very happy with Embiid though and regardless Embiid is part of why they are where they are with Simmons. I'm being a nice here but I don't think Embiid dislikes Simmons. Somehow teammates seemed to still really like Andrew Wiggins and he is at least as puzzling as Simmons.

Monster - I think this is good take. I think Embiid's recent positive tweet about Simmons was orchestrated by the Sixers front office in a lame effort to rehab Simmons' trade value and to protect Embiid's reputation. I think your observation about that tweet is an astute one - namely that Embiid doesn't actually say he wants Embiid to stay. We should take a step back and note that reports have been circulating for at least a couple years that Embiid and Simmons weren't gelling together either on or off the court. So again, the Sixers effort to get rid of Simmons shouldn't be viewed as an outgrowth of this year's playoffs. Simmons' short-comings in this year's playoffs were nothing new and his decision to pass up that one dunk wasn't an isolated incident. It was emblematic of what Simmons has been since Philly drafted him.

I suspect you're right that Embiid doesn't dislike Simmons. I think he's frustrated playing with him because of his poor shooting and, more importantly, his passive refusal to shoot and the lack of any improvement over the years in his shooting or his willingness to shoot. As you, me and others have noted, the result of all this is reflected in Simmons' current market value. And that's why we're discussing the possibility of the Wolves trading for Simmons. It's actually a realistic possibility. We'll see what happens over the next 30 days.

[KiwiMatt]

I personally don't want us to trade for Ben Simmons. Purely because of what it will take to get him - Jaden McDaniels, Malik Beasley and multiple 1st round picks. That is giving up alot of future assets to get a very talented, but seriously flawed player. I also question his mental toughness and his desire to play in Minnesota, even with his buddies here.

Resign Vanderbilt and McLaughlin, and trade Layman for cap relief to sign Isaiah Hartenstein. Use 2021/22 to develop players and chemistry. Realistic goal should be 8th - 10th seed and make the play in tournament.

Russell / Beverley / McLaughlin
Edwards / Beasley / Nowell
McDaniels / Prince / Okogie
Vanderbilt / Reid / Knight (2 way)
Towns / Hartenstein

[Lipoli390]

I personally don't want us to trade for Ben Simmons. Purely because of what it will take to get him - Jaden McDaniels, Malik Beasley and multiple 1st round picks. That is giving up alot of future assets to get a very talented, but seriously flawed player. I also question his mental toughness and his desire to play in Minnesota, even with his buddies here.

Resign Vanderbilt and McLaughlin, and trade Layman for cap relief to sign Isaiah Hartenstein. Use 2021/22 to develop players and chemistry. Realistic goal should be 8th - 10th seed and make the play in tournament.

Russell / Beverley / McLaughlin
Edwards / Beasley / Nowell
McDaniels / Prince / Okogie
Vanderbilt / Reid / Knight (2 way)
Towns / Hartenstein

I agree with you, Matt. I'm in exactly the same place as you. My first choice is to move forward with the additions of Vanderbilt, J-Mac and Bolmaro. And I'd love to trade Layman for the luxury tax space to sign Hartenstein. I also like your suggested depth chart. If I thought we could trade DLO, Layman, the rights to Bolmaro, an unprotected 1st-round pick and two 2nd-round picks for Simmons, I'd do it. But that's about as much as I'd be willing to give up for Simmons.