A1 From Day 1? - Wolves @ Clippers GDT

[FNG]

I fast forwarded this debacle this morning, so I can't say too much about this game. I did read through this thread though and have a few comments:

1) Yes, this team is terrible without KAT- I think we learned that at the end of last season and at Staples Center this week. Nothing new here.

2) You need at least two stars to compete in the NBA. When the Clippers lose Leonard for the night, they still have Paul George as a star. When KAT goes down, our star becomes D'Angelo Leonard, a decent scoring co-pilot, but not the kind of guy you can rely on to carry a team. A quick glance at the box score might lead to the conclusion that D-Lo had a good game with 22 points on relatively efficient shooting. But there's nothing in the box score that penalizes D-Lo for his consistently horrible defense or poor ball movement, and that's why we need to turn to...wait for it...the (much maligned) plus/minus stat. I note that D-Lo is again in his customary position with his team-leading -28. With every game my concern about who D-Lo really is becomes more and more clear- unfortunately, he seems to be the second coming of Zach LaVine.

3) Ripping D-Lo might be the most repetitive criticism in this forum, and I am as guilty as anyone.
But the second biggest criticism seems to me to be of the Rosas/Saunders system, and I'm not quite sure why this gets so much attention. When I hear Ryan talk about his offensive system, I consistently hear him talk about ball movement and avoiding long 2-point shots- heck, Ant understood that within 2 days of joining the team. Ryan wants this team to share the ball and focus on open threes and layups, and I have to admit that would be my offensive system too if I were coaching an NBA team. And I think we saw this team execute this system when they were at full strength in the Utah game and in the final Dallas pre-season game. I also thought we were executing the "system" at the start of last night's game. But when Rubio left the game with a twisted ankle, it seemed like many of our guys abandoned the "system" and started playing one-on-one. Is that Ryan's fault? Maybe, I don't know. I read that Fratello said Ryan should have put D-Lo's ass on the bench when he started playing his hero ball game. Maybe Ryan should have yanked Edwards out of the game also when Ant refused to attack the basket and just floated around the three-point line.
I guess that's my biggest question mark with Ryan- I think his "system" is fine. Making his players accountable for executing the system seems to be the problem. Pop has never been afraid to bench a player for straying from his system...Ryan needs to follow that strategy, and not be afraid to yank even a max player if he doesn't follow the game plan.

4) On the positive side, man, does Vando ever bring some energy to this team when he plays! The reason Calipari valued him so much as a recruit is how dominant his athleticism made him in high school. Vanderbilt has been sloppy with the ball in the G league, but otherwise has been dominant- 19/14 per 36. I'd like to see him get some minutes at PF- keep him on a short leash if he doesn't protect the ball by all means, but let's see what the kid can do. I gotta believe he will at least be as good as Juancho and Layman.

[FNG]

Russell and Edwards with 0 FT attempts tonight. This system doesn't work if you don't get the ball to the rack and dish out to 3pt shooters. With the Suns it was Nash/Amare PnR attacking the basket/mid-range. Harden alone relentlessly attacks the basket and shoots double digit free throws every night which sets up up their version. Get to the basket first. 3 pointers are secondary to that action. Stop trying to make it the primary look on a team full of bad shooters.

Spot on man. You have two better option versus the contested 3P pull up. Either making the layup and/or getting to the line or finding a teammate for an open 3.

But the main thing I'm taking away is KAT is the defensive leader on this team, he went out and our defense went to crap. KAT should be considered for DPOY (ok maybe a little hyperbole, lol). I'm not at all impressed with Naz, he's good for a FA young guy, but poor for an NBA starter. Then Juancho turd and Layman simply never rebound well it seems. At one point we had Ed Davis, Juancho and Layman on the court. It was ugly.

Whoops, I should have read this before posted my lengthy post...you guys nailed it. And Ryan is not without blame here by not holding his contested jump shooters accountable or demanding 100% effort on defense at all times. D-Lo has played for several coaches, but I don't know if he has ever been held accountable. I wonder if a guy like Pop could turn him into a plus player.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Russell and Edwards with 0 FT attempts tonight. This system doesn't work if you don't get the ball to the rack and dish out to 3pt shooters. With the Suns it was Nash/Amare PnR attacking the basket/mid-range. Harden alone relentlessly attacks the basket and shoots double digit free throws every night which sets up up their version. Get to the basket first. 3 pointers are secondary to that action. Stop trying to make it the primary look on a team full of bad shooters.

Pointed it out yesterday... but Trae Young has made 42 free throws this season in only 3 games. The Hawks are 3 - 0.

D. Russell has made 4 free throws this season in 4 games.

That's not necessarily a rip on Russell as a testament to how some teams/players are forcing the issue and manipulating their way to the foul line. It's an ugly style. But it's how the game is called today.

It's really cool to see Russell's pretty, high-arching fadeaways with a hand in his face. (no sarcasm). It looks awesome to watch. But it would be even better if the league was still playing by 2003 rules.

[BloopOracle]

So....does Saunders plan on running any off-ball screens for Edwards someday or???

[AbeVigodaLive]

Also, if your team is deviating from the game plan call a fucking timeout before the lead gets to 30. We would chip away, give it right back and then they went on a run and Ryan just stood on the sideline and watched it completely balloon out of control. If you blow through your timeouts so be it. That's what you do when your team is playing badly and not playing the way they are supposed to.

"You'd like to call a timeout every time it happens (poor execution)... but we don't have enough of those."

- Ryan Saunders

[AbeVigodaLive]

Ive got the Clippers feed and Mike Fratello has been making fun of our coaching the whole game.

Anything in particular?

He started with the 3s. He said our coaches said their philosophy is to take a lot of threes. He said you cant call it a philosphy without first making them. He said why be bottom of the league in %.

Then he was making fun of our small ball. We're looking like amateurs. Its sad.

I've been posting too small all night. But that's not really our coaches fault.

Its our coaches fault for not pushing back on the "system" approach to team building. Basketball will always be about matchups. The teams are too small to boil down your approach to one philosophy. Saunders is too green to know what to fight for, hes digging his own grave.

That's why Rosas hired Saunders as his head coach. You might recall Rosas going on and on at the time about how he and Ryan were aligned. Rosas isn't up to the job he's in and he didn't want a strong experienced head coach who could challenge him. At least that's the way I see it.

Yes Lip. We've been in agreement on this.

Saunders is a lame-duck coach. This is all part of Rosas' plan. Saunders knows this. ALL of us know this. So As suggested by others, Saunders could try to be arguably the ONLY NBA head coach willing to bench the team's $27M player to prove a point.

But he's in job preservation mode. He's super young and potentially has a 30-year assistant coaching career ahead of him.

Alienating star players might not be the best way to do that within the intricacies of NBA coaching and player relationships. Saunders will play it out, take his lumps and move on to another organization as an assistant.

[Wolvesfan21]

I think Ryan right now is an avg NBA HC. When the team has played within the system they have done well, when not they have been terrible. We all saw that the last two games when the players decide to go hero ball or simply play with half effort for much of the game..

It's 90% on the players to get the job done. Play within the system the coach wants and not play street ball. It's on them to be ready to play, give great effort night in and out. No matter who has coached Wiggins he was a SAB. That's who he is. You want to taste fresh walleye but are eating canned tuna.

Michael Jordan would have been successful no matter what, because that is who he was. Same with LeBron. Ryan could coach either of these and been extremely successful IMO. Players elite talent, drive and motivation are the biggest factors. Lots of guys have elite talent but lack the uncommon drive to be the absolute best no matter what. Guys like DLO and Wiggins are very talented. But play like SAB's too often. Like a shiny can of tuna, the coach isn't going to change that tuna into fresh walleye no matter what. Maybe add some seasoning or mayo, but that's about it.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

Russell and Edwards with 0 FT attempts tonight. This system doesn't work if you don't get the ball to the rack and dish out to 3pt shooters. With the Suns it was Nash/Amare PnR attacking the basket/mid-range. Harden alone relentlessly attacks the basket and shoots double digit free throws every night which sets up up their version. Get to the basket first. 3 pointers are secondary to that action. Stop trying to make it the primary look on a team full of bad shooters.

Yep. Exactly what I was thinking as I watched. It goes for culver too. Drive and draw a foul or drive and kick. It's easier to just sit out there and jack threes. It's the path of least resistance, and it just shows laziness in my opinion. It's one thing if these are wide open shots off of ball movement, but they're contested usually. I don't like what I've seen at all from edwards these last two games. Take it strong and when you get tired we have plenty of depth on the wing

[Coolbreeze44]

Russell and Edwards with 0 FT attempts tonight. This system doesn't work if you don't get the ball to the rack and dish out to 3pt shooters. With the Suns it was Nash/Amare PnR attacking the basket/mid-range. Harden alone relentlessly attacks the basket and shoots double digit free throws every night which sets up up their version. Get to the basket first. 3 pointers are secondary to that action. Stop trying to make it the primary look on a team full of bad shooters.

Spot on man. You have two better option versus the contested 3P pull up. Either making the layup and/or getting to the line or finding a teammate for an open 3.

But the main thing I'm taking away is KAT is the defensive leader on this team, he went out and our defense went to crap. KAT should be considered for DPOY (ok maybe a little hyperbole, lol). I'm not at all impressed with Naz, he's good for a FA young guy, but poor for an NBA starter. Then Juancho turd and Layman simply never rebound well it seems. At one point we had Ed Davis, Juancho and Layman on the court. It was ugly.

If KAT was DPOY he would be a top 3 player in the league and his teams would never miss the playoffs. Let's not get crazy here. Our defense went to crap because we are too damn small.

[Wolvesfan21]

Russell and Edwards with 0 FT attempts tonight. This system doesn't work if you don't get the ball to the rack and dish out to 3pt shooters. With the Suns it was Nash/Amare PnR attacking the basket/mid-range. Harden alone relentlessly attacks the basket and shoots double digit free throws every night which sets up up their version. Get to the basket first. 3 pointers are secondary to that action. Stop trying to make it the primary look on a team full of bad shooters.

Spot on man. You have two better option versus the contested 3P pull up. Either making the layup and/or getting to the line or finding a teammate for an open 3.

But the main thing I'm taking away is KAT is the defensive leader on this team, he went out and our defense went to crap. KAT should be considered for DPOY (ok maybe a little hyperbole, lol). I'm not at all impressed with Naz, he's good for a FA young guy, but poor for an NBA starter. Then Juancho turd and Layman simply never rebound well it seems. At one point we had Ed Davis, Juancho and Layman on the court. It was ugly.

If KAT was DPOY he would be a top 3 player in the league and his teams would never miss the playoffs. Let's not get crazy here. Our defense went to crap because we are too damn small.

I'm just trying to balance the scale out just a little bit. We've ripped on KAT's defense enough, I just think he's better then some of you credit him for. Let's be real too, the rosters minus the Butler year and some avg/below avg vets have been pretty poor around KAT. If you got one real superstar (top 15 player) it's going to be near impossible to make the playoffs these days, especially when that superstar isn't a primary ball handler.

How did Anthony Davis miss the playoffs? He missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 years in NO. I think most of us would say he is better than KAT. A little weaker on offense but an elite defender.